Not secession by the right- Secession by the left?

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KriegHund

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We talk alot about, if things get worse, will some states suceed...succeed...
Will leave the union.

Considering there seems to be more moderate/pro gun states than anti states (the anti's are usually just louder...)

Do you think that they will leave the union? New york, california, etc etc...

Hey, im not sure it would be such a terrible thing. Then again...
 
It's secession, and I think it's quite unlikely for groups or states that tend toward either end of the political spectrum. Seceding from the US is a pipe dream of fringe group ideologues, not rationally thinking people who would rather work to solve problems within the country instead of tearing it apart and forming their own Third World polities. Unless dreams of civil insurrection are what get you going, and it certainly seems to for some people here judging by the threads of the last few days. Scary ...

Maybe all those Yugoslavian rifles now on the market are sending subliminal messages to their owners ... "Balkanization, you know you want it."
 
Seceding from the US is a pipe dream of fringe group ideologues, not rationally thinking people who would rather work to solve problems within the country instead of tearing it apart and forming their own Third World polities

Yeah, it's soooooo much better to remain part of a completely tyrannical regime than to go on your own and secure your population's rights:rolleyes:
 
the probability that any state will ever leave "the union" is about as high as i can give a thumbs up. The country would have to be in martial law/half blown up by chinese nukes or something horrible. There are not enough people that even know that a state has the ability (well atleast among my generation). and frankly there is no point.... for now atleast. The interdependence that our states have with each other is so vast that the entire nation would fall apart if a state like california (not very long ago the third largest economy in the world) left. I'm not saying its completely impossible, its just that it would require something pretty drastic. and if a state were to leave the union it would never be because of gun laws, only wacko politicians who hijack the constitution and try to turn a free country into a police state. Thats what elections are for though, even though they don't always work.
 
I don't think much of seceeding.

I think more often of kicking certain states out.

Like NJ, for example.

Blow the bridges, mine the Delaware, and be done with them.
 
Yeah, it's soooooo much better to remain part of a completely tyrannical regime than to go on your own and secure your population's rights.
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Care to explain?

I think that you'll have a hard time demonstrating that the current US government is tyrannical, at least by comparison with other governments that commonly are recognized as tyrannical. Capricious, perhaps, with a tendency to flirt with policies it shouldn't, but I think tyrannical is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

I suppose if you truly believe that the US is governed in a tyrannical fashion, then by all means, go ahead and try to secure your rights through secession. The miniscule portion of the population that actually agrees with you will rest secure in the knowledge that you helped to combat the tyranny of the government of the country that enjoys the greatest degree of freedom on the planet.

Frankly, I think that the mere consideration of secession as a viable option is dangerous, but I guess that just makes me tyrannical.
 
"We talk alot about, if things get worse"

Did you get that part, "if things get worse"?

People's milage will vary on how much worse things get and how quickly but eventually lines in the sand will be drawn. So just try to think for a minute if things get worse exactly what it will take for you to consider the current regime tyrannical.

It seems rather obvious that the Feds have wipped their behinds on the Bill of Rights, so just think about what it would take for you to consider them overboard.
 
jfi said:
It's secession, and I think it's quite unlikely for groups or states that tend toward either end of the political spectrum. Seceding from the US is a pipe dream of fringe group ideologues, not rationally thinking people who would rather work to solve problems within the country instead of tearing it apart and forming their own Third World polities. Unless dreams of civil insurrection are what get you going, and it certainly seems to for some people here judging by the threads of the last few days. Scary ...

Maybe all those Yugoslavian rifles now on the market are sending subliminal messages to their owners ... "Balkanization, you know you want it."
Click to expand...

fringe group ideologues formed the nation. and most of them were terribly rational. great argument.
 
carlrodd said:
fringe group ideologues formed the nation. and most of them were terribly rational. great argument.
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Fringe group ideologues who were just about comparably equipped (though not as numerous or as well trained) to their adversaries (who were an entire ocean away), with the aid of another powerful nation which was at war with said adversaries at the same time.

Now try fighting an adversary who is HERE, and is more heavily equipped than any group of J(oe/ane) Average Gun Owner could hope to be without being seven kinds of independently wealthy and well-connected, better trained than the majority of us could hope to be, with little or no outside support, and not (apparently) a significantly large portion of the populace on your side of the fight. You lose. Fedgov 2, Secession 0.

I don't mean to sound like a jerkwad, but we have to fight by the rules, because if we fight by the rules, we have, what, 535 people to contend with in the US Congress? If we try to play dirty, sneakin' out the back, takin' our collective ball and going home to form the United Territories or somesuch, well, those 500-odd folk in congress have about 1.4 million friends (wikipedia stat of number of active servicefolks in our armed forces) at the nation's disposal with which to respond, loudly and angrily, and.. uh.. boomily.

~GnSx
(this is not to make any assumptions about the activities of servicemen or anything when faced with the decision to shoot at seceding ex-US Citizens, or anything, I'm just saying that the time for effective civilian uprising against the government is somewhat past, considering the vast disparity of force available to the citizens and the government.
 
Well, obviously everybody has different tolerances or inclinations for what they feel is "worse." Granted, several infringements upon the Bill of Rights by the Federal, state, and local governments have occured throughout American history; constitutional case law books are full of such examples; they are also full of the legal remedies that were implemented to rectify many of those situations.

Are you arguing that things are bad enough now to justify secession, or are you arguing for a pre-emptive secession just in case "things get worse"? Maybe you just wish to hold it as a cudgel with which to browbeat political opponents - "Stop or I'll secede!" Assuming that they would bother to listen to you, being all tyrannical and whatnot.

There is nothing in the current American political landscape - absolutely nothing - that justifies secession in any form. As much as I dislike certain activities of the current administration (and some of previous administrations), I still can say so, confident in the fact that I realistically will not be persecuted for voicing my dissent. In fact, you even can make an argument for secession without fear of persecution, unless of course you start advocating the violent overthrow of the US government.

They might by "wiping their behinds" with the Constitution, but that simply requires greater activism on my part, not daydreams of forming my own statelet ostensibly to preserve the true meaning of the Constitution (never mind the fact that such an action would undermine the very nation for which the Constitution was created).

I think that labelling the US government as tyrannical is not only in error, but is incredibly insulting to anybody who actually lived under or was persecuted by a tyrannical regime. I'd love to see you explain to a gulag survivor that the Federal government is tyrannical in a manner similar to the tyranny of Stalinist Russia.
 
jfi said:
I think that labelling the US government as tyrannical is not only in error, but is incredibly insulting to anybody who actually lived under or was persecuted by a tyrannical regime. I'd love to see you explain to a gulag survivor that the Federal government is tyrannical in a manner similar to the tyranny of Stalinist Russia.
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so what does that mean?...we have to suffer to the degree that many did during Stalin's regime before our arguments are qualified? sounds good. let's watch things slip away, and then right as things get to the point where we CAN'T act any longer, then we'll raise our voices. if people want to talk about secession...have at it! it keeps the government on it's toes.
 
Hey, I'm all for nipping things in the bud, hence the "requires greater activism" on my part bit that I wrote. But there is a vast, vast gulf of historical experience that this country would have to cross before the actions of its government even approximate those of Stalinist Russia, or any other tyrannical regime you may choose as an example. In light of this, my activities should be 'paced' accordingly.

And no, talking about secession does not keep the government on its toes ... it makes people who post on Internet discussion boards about firearms look like dangerous whack-jobs. If you think I'm wrong, ask them. Better yet, talk to the average American on the street about your ideas on secession, and mention in the same breath that you enjoy shooting guns ... the reaction should be interesting.

Of course, they're just sheeple, or idiots, or any number of other epithets I've seen bandied about boards like these.
 
As much as it pains me to say it, the rest of us need California and New York to be on the same team if we want to keep our standard of living. While the interior states boast industrial might, the future will not be in industry, but in creativity and technology, two things New York and California have in spades. We can whine all we want about how we don't like their politics, but at the same time, the once heavily industrial cities in the rust belt are decaying while New York City and the Cities on the Left coast are thriving. About the only red state that can make it on its own and can maintain its standard of living, is probably Texas.
 
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