Not your gunfight, but you get involved anyway

[Old Dog]

Two neighbors retrieved their own firearms to go to the aid of two deputies who'd just taken shotgun wounds to the head (both in danger of losing their eyesight). Shot at the suspect to (apparently) allow other neighbors to drag the injured deputies to safety into a nearby garage until additional responders arrived.

Any thoughts? This one seems to have worked out well. The deputies were well-known in the neighborhood, and one of the two residents that came to their aid apparently had some combat experience (military).

https://www.king5.com/article/news/...ight/281-0d77006e-7574-435d-98d1-3ed3d8189236

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

They did the right thing.

Details, second-guesses and recriminations will undoubtedly follow.

 

[1942bull]

It was absolutely the right course of action and fully justifiable. Odd thing is that the name of the town is Peaceful Valley.

 

[WestKentucky]

In most places it is legal to defend self or others from being killed, serious physical harm, rape etc. in many places it is legal to use deadly force to stop a person from committing a felony. Either way it seems that the residents are in the clear. Biggest concern would be backup arriving while there’s still a gun in the hands of the residents. By all means keep it handy in case the offender comes back, but don’t do anything to make other police feel threatened when they arrive.

 

[BJung]

Universal Community Values transcends any Law to me. We are the policemen and keep an eye out for those that threaten our Community such as murder, burglary, kidnapping, rape, etc.. It's just that we don't have the time to do this and pay taxes for the policeman to do this for Us. He or she should be considered our neighbor. The more he or she realizes this, we are a family. And so, if our neighbor is injured, it's our duty to step forward to protect our friend, neighbor, and community. And so, what these people did was right.

 

[MEHavey]

I'm very gratified to both hear of what the neighbors did,
and the positive responses from folks here on the Forum.
Both seem to be character traits that are in slowly diminishing
supply of late across the board.

At one time such response would have been expected.
Now they appear be hailed as exceptional.

Thank God for the exceptions.

.

 

[Kleanbore]

We are the policemen and keep an eye out for those that threaten our Community such as murder, burglary, kidnapping, rape, etc.. It's just that we don't have the time to do this and pay taxes for the policeman to do this for Us.

Nor do we have the training, the approved procedures, the ability to call for backup, the authority to effect arrests, employers who will cover legal costs, medical expenses, income during time off, and so on. If we are not policemen, we are not policemen.

what these people did was right.

So it would seem.

 

[BJung]

Nor do we have the training, the approved procedures, the ability to call for backup, the authority to effect arrests, employers who will cover legal costs, medical expenses, income during time off, and so on. If we are not policemen, we are not policemen.

So it would seem.

True, we don't have the training and stand back and hide? I think most criminals don't have much training either but if criminals know that that people will come out of the woodwork and shoot at them, they'll stop causing trouble. Here's an off topic but relevant example. Look at the Battle of Concord at the beginning of the American Revolution. The British had the best army in the World at the time. But, people came out of the woodworks and started shooting at them and chased them back to Boston ( I think it was Boston..).So, there you go.

 

[MEHavey]

Lexington postscript:
When the smoke cleared, eight militiamen lay dead and
nine were wounded, while only one Redcoat was injured.

Doing the right thing oft times comes at significant cost.
"...not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

.

 

[Kleanbore]

True, we don't have the training and stand back and hide?

or the approved procedures, the ability to call for backup, the authority to effect arrests, employers who will cover legal costs, medical expenses, income during time off, and so on.

Look at the Battle of Concord at the beginning of the American Revolution.

Not the same thing.

 

[MEHavey]

Look at the Battle of Concord at the beginning of the American Revolution.

Not the same thing

While not the same, they are 1st cousins in a cultural family of taking self-responsibility
for action in the the face of those who would do wrong.

(Most) are not professionals here, and incur not insignificant risk in-so-doing.
But it is one of the significant differences between Citizen and Subject.

 

[BJung]

or the approved procedures, the ability to call for backup, the authority to effect arrests, employers who will cover legal costs, medical expenses, income during time off, and so on.

Not the same thing.

Okay, so phone 911 and let the police offers die because we don't have the training?

 

[Jeff White]

In this case it was clear who both sides were. In a rural area you don't know how long backup might take. I don't know anything about that county but where I live depending on the time of day two deputies might have been the entire shift. The article doesn't mention how long it took for other officers to arrive. There are times when getting involved is the right decision. I'm going to say that I was in a pretty good fight with a subject I was trying to arrest for domestic battery. I had arrested him before with no problems. I wasn't fast enough cuffing him, he jerked away as soon as the steel hit his wrist, one cuff was on. I'm hanging onto the other cuff because handcuffs can be a pretty dangerous weapon. A bystander helped me take him down. Backup was still 20 minutes out. I was happy to get the assistance from the neighbor who was working in his yard and saw the fight start.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

LOL, coming to the aid is one thing when you know the situation, and as repeatedly warned against elsewhere, a much more difficult call when you don't know the situation. From the sounds of it, the bad guy (Young) had already discharged his weapon after expressing disapproval for a neighbor burning brush. So Young was already a neighborhood threat and the deputies were called on him and things unfolded from there. The timeline, as described, seems a little disjointed after that.

This may have not been Deeter and Marchall's gunfight per se, but they were endangered before the deputies arrived and afterwards by Young's actions.

The Sams did alright, but it also sounds like they didn't do much more than spray and pray.

 

[MEHavey]

let the police offers die because we don't have the training?

I don't believe Kleanbore is saying that, so much as... do appreciate the greater risk
all-round when making what has to be a very quick -- and irrevocable -- decision.

 

[Kleanbore]

because we don't have the training?

Why do you keep limiting the issue to training?

 

[Kleanbore]

In this case it was clear who both sides were.

Yep.

There are times when getting involved is the right decision.

Yep.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

As I stated in another thread, in this current environment we all find ourselves in I'm looking out for me and mine, and that's it.

I'm glad things worked out in the OP's story but you won't find any sane person getting involved in something like that in today's world.

 

[gryphon1911]

Nor do we have the training, the approved procedures, the ability to call for backup, the authority to effect arrests, employers who will cover legal costs, medical expenses, income during time off, and so on. If we are not policemen, we are not policemen.

So it would seem.

one could argue that even the police do not have the proper training to do their jobs either. We could also argue the points above that we don’t have the authority to call for backup, affect arrests or have legal costs covered. All those things can be mitigated effectively or enacted depending on where you are.

I’m not saying that someone should go out and portend to be a police officer or a vigilante - but doing the right thing can be done , it just takes the desire to educate yourself.

doing the right thing and getting training is all about what we do to be better people and citizens.
That is on us. Sitting back and outsourcing your safety to someone else is a sure fire way of being a victim.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…As I stated in another thread, in this current environment we all find ourselves in I'm looking out for me and mine, and that's it. I'm glad things worked out in the OP's story but you won't find any sane person getting involved in something like that in today's world…"

Exactly. Concur 100%. If I observed that crime in action I would call 9-1-1 and report what I saw occurring outside. Intervene? What an easy way to get yourself blasted to hamburger by responding backup units.

 

[gryphon1911]

It saddens me to see fellow people here that could have the means to potentially save a life sit back and say they would not help. You don’t know how long backup is going to be.

I hope and pray that something like this never happens to your family members and you find out that your neighbors stayed safe and let something horrible happen to them because they only wanted to worry about “themselves and their own”.

we are all part of a collective whole and we are “our own”. We’ve segregated ourselves too much already and tried to make ourselves islands.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Note that Deeter and Marshall first made sure that women and children found shelter in a house.

Next, they armed themselves.

Only then did they act to defend the injured deputies.

Whether or not you feel that Deeter and Marshall were right to have defended the deputies, one thing IS certain:

They got this sequence correct.

 

[Rexster]

A couple of thoughts come to mind. One is that an unhinged neighbor, who has just shot at arriving officers, is a significant danger to me and my family. This was not a random event, encountered at a random location, for these armed citizens. If a troubled guy has “snapped,” I, or my family, might be in danger of being his next targets, for the unpardonable sin of having witnessed the encounter. It may not be “my gunfight,” but, I have an investment in the final outcome.

Another thought is that an armed attack, on peace officers, can be seen as an attack on society, itself, and, therefore, an attack on me and mine. I realize that an officer/agent/deputy might be acting wrongly, but if I have seen the event, from the start, I can have a reasonable understanding that the first responders are doing their jobs. It may not be “my gunfight,” but, I have an investment in the final outcome, especially as I live in a small city, with a small PD. Two downed officers is a sizable percentage of the personnel.

In addition to the above two thoughts, I will add that I am biased, being a retired police officer. I would feel a desire to protect the young ‘uns.

Nothing that I have said, here, should be taken as advising anyone to act outside of the law, or to use unreasonable force. I am not saying that I would act outside of the law, or use unreasonable force.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I think coming to the aid of a police officer would be the only situation where I would possibly get involved on behalf of a stranger. I keep thinking about the Arizona case a couple of years ago where a passerby saved an officer's life by shooting the BG who was beating him up.

 

[lemaymiami]

As a general principle encouraging citizens to refrain from acting as law enforcers is pretty reasonable - but that has its limits..

Would you stand by and do nothing while watching a young woman get raped?

Would you stand by and do nothing while watching a man being beaten to death by another armed with a baseball bat?

At what point do you act - even knowing that you place yourself in grave danger by doing so?

I won't provide a single answer to these questions - but every citizen probably needs to consider - just how to respond - or not at all. Well in advance of that once in a lifetime event.