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NRA Lawsuit against Washington State

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Sinixstar, Nov 11, 2008.

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  1. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Came across this today from the NRA Site:

    http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=11779

    Seems like this could potentially lead to some opposing constitutional interpretations re: Foreign Nationals and Homeland Security. Some opponents of various national security measures have argued that constitutional protections do not start and stop with citizenship, while proponents have argued "yes, they do".
    In the broader security context (which I believe is smack in the middle of the spirit of the 2nd) - what implications could this have?

    Personally - I have to side with Washington on this one. Not to raise the alarms here, but I can think of 19 guys not all that long ago who came to this country legally, and at one point would have passed a simple background check. 19 guys who are PRECISELY the people we do NOT want to have guns on our soil.
    As citizens, we have to pass a background check to buy firearms. There is an expectation of accuracy to that system, as all states are operating on the same page, and contributing to the same system in a reasonably reliable fashion. The same cannot be said for foreign countries. To me, it seems this may open the door to allow potentially violent criminals to take advantage of our open society. In the worst case, they could use that openness directly against us.

    There is however the possibility, and I can only assume this is the NRA's position - that this could be the beginning of a slippery slope.

    The question is - is there a line, and where should/would it be drawn?
     
  2. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Also - if this is off-topic for this area, I apologize. Couldn't quite figure out the best place to put it, and it is generally a legal question.
     
  3. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    You realize you are making pretty much the same argument that antis do against law abiding gun owners, right?

    Non citizens have exactly the same rights in this country that citizens do, less the right to vote. The 2A applies to them as well.
     
  4. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Well, but again - than how does that fit with some of the broader national security initiatives?

    Also - you sort of said it yourself....
    Define "law abiding" as it applies to foreign nationals with potentially unknown backgrounds. "Law Abiding" in a foreign country, does not necessarily mean "law abiding" in the united states.
    The Washington law also does not say foreign nationals cannot own guns. As I understand it - it's simply a way of making sure we're not handing over the keys to the kingdom.
     
  5. ericyp

    ericyp Member

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    The bill of rights are rights that should be extended to all people in the United States without strong convictions forcing otherwise. Period. I would not deny a legal immigrant the the 2nd any more than I'd deny them the right to free speech, or to a speedy trial.
    Your evidence... you know 19 immigrants who you think are unfit to bear arms, so none should be able to keep guns?
    Well I've met thousands of citizens that I wouldn't trust with a gun, so should no citizen be allowed to bear arms either? I am a Washington resident, and I'm fully behind the NRA on this one.
     
  6. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Nobody said liberty was guaranteed safe.
     
  7. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Fair enough - but then the second part of the question, what implications does that pose to other efforts of national security? Specifically in terms of taking action (surveillance, certain forms of interrogation, due process/legal maneuvering, etc) against foreign nationals?
     
  8. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    I'm not saying which side I take in this debate, but certainly raises a lot of honest-to-goodness questions. So far, the debate has been civil (I"d say), and I think this thread could potentially be informative if kept High Road :)
     
  9. MDW GUNS

    MDW GUNS Member

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    We are talking about legal residence who even pay taxes, not illegal aliens.
    I never understood why WA had this law and I disagree with it.
    Good for the NRA!
     
  10. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    We're not saying they CAN'T have guns, just that they will be held to the same standard as the rest of us.

    The issue as I see it - is whether the NICS may not be equipped to handle a foreign criminal history. If we're talking about a person with perhaps a violent history, or worse an extremist history - is that reflected in NICS checks?
     
  11. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

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    My father is nearly 80 years old and has lived here since he was four years old. I doubt anyone told him about getting a firearms card.

    Should he be taken to jail?
     
  12. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    While i'm not suggesting he should be taken to jail - The question does have to be asked...

    is he a citizen, or a resident alien?
     
  13. MDW GUNS

    MDW GUNS Member

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    No, the NICS will not show a criminal history outside the US.
    However, in order to get a Green Card, the INS investigates this in the home country and a legal resident would not be one if there is a criminal history!
     
  14. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Yea, cause we all know how great a job they do!
     
  15. MDW GUNS

    MDW GUNS Member

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    No, I don't know.
    Why don't you give us a few facts about that??

    I actually think they do a good job with what they have to deal with and I know!
     
  16. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    ins does ok but at some point they rely on foreign government agencies at that point train leaves track
     
  17. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E7DE143AF934A2575AC0A9659C8B63

    http://www.redorbit.com/news/politi...h_list_trips_up_marines_homecoming/index.html


    So let me get this straight.
    We let known terrorists into the country - who *gasp* commit terrorist acts, who knew!?!?!
    Yet we give a vet returning from Iraq a hard time?

    Sorry if my faith in that system is a little shakey....

    Be advised, I am also playing a slight role of devil's advocate - but I do believe there's some legit questions/concerns here...
     
  18. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    I also should revise this statement - it's not strictly a dig at INS directly... that whole system is a bit... let's just say it could use some improvement...
     
  19. MDW GUNS

    MDW GUNS Member

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    It's always easy to say "know/knew it better".
    If you compair the US with other agancies in the world, they are doing qauite a better job.
     
  20. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    On "we do a better job" - Yes and no.
    I would have to dig around for it - but there have been instances of people on the terror lists that slip right past our guys, flying internationally, who get stopped on the other end.

    As far as "easy" to know/knew better...
    Clerical errors are easy... dead bodies - not so much.
     
  21. everallm

    everallm Member

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    Folks,

    If you do a search on this very site you will see a lot of relevant detail.

    This suit relates solely and only to permanent resident aliens who are already federally legally permitted to own firearms

    There is an anomaly in WA where previously PRA's could have CCW's but due to some badly written laws are now banned.

    This was due to the stupid manner in which the law and agency about the Alien Firearm Licence came to be set up.

    Law of unintended consequences at work
     
  22. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    So, as a good Republican, how does one reconcile a hatred of foreigners with a love of guns?

    Next thing you know, folks will be trying to argue that even gay abortion doctors should have gun rights!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2008
  23. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I am not opposed to extending firearms rights to people who have legally emigrated to this country.
     
  24. justice4all

    justice4all Member

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    Is the RKBA a natural right, inherent in all humans as an extension of the right to self-preservation? Or is it a privilege that the government can extend to, and later take away from, a chosen few?
     
  25. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Member

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    I'm not sure that anything which requires a form of man-made tangible hardware can be called a "natural" right.
     
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