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NRA - making them 'effectively'work for us

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Lonest@r, Nov 12, 2008.

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  1. Lonest@r

    Lonest@r Member

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    I saw a couple threads questioning the effectiveness of the NRA, which quickly turned PRO/CON NRA and they closed before I had a chance to participate.

    Hoepfully this one will stay on the topic of making our money work for us,

    That's the problem with any so called 'non-profit', SALARIES?

    Sinixter: I feel the same way. My father is always trying to get me to sign up, and when I brush it off, he signs me up as a gift.

    The problem I have with NRA is they use too many political mud-slinging/fear tactics. Most any American Rifleman/Hunter is full of "They're taking our guns" and "Top 10 anti-gun politicains" type headlines. When I saw the "I'm a BITTER gun owner and I VOTE" sign, I rolled my eyes, talk about whacko(waco?). That was before learning it was in repsonse to Obama's remarks, but even though, they could use their money to a much better cause than regurgitating political speech. It's just more rousing to the average 'redneck' NRA member....

    BUT on the otherhand, whats our other choice? Politics again.

    We need to make our money work for us... MAybe it's time to send some letters to WAYNE to better inform rather than scare gun advocates into voting their 'approved' candidates and mailing millions of 'canned' letters to our leaders.

    Any bets on how long this one stays open?
     
  2. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Lonestar:

    The problem is there isn't anything remotely as powerful as the NRA when it comes to gun rights.

    You can write your stupid Congressman and call them till you are blue in the face and as we recently saw with the "Bailout", it does absolutely no good.

    The last time the politician's listened to the people was when they tried to shove through that Shamnesty Bill a couple of years ago.

    Bottom line is the NRA has the clout and power to at least get these politicians to listen. That is better than nothing. They are not perfect, but they are doing something.

    Until something better comes along, what else would you suggest being a part of?

    I will also add that while the NRA isn't perfect, it does more good for gun rights in this country than anything else, so they will continue to get my support.
     
  3. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Your argument sounds a lot like some in the loosing party are leveling against a certain running mate because *** was to ***** wing and didn't appeal to the centerist voter.
    As a gun owner I support the org. that has that focus and frankly that is the defining issue for me at the polls since it is usually the only constitutional right that is directly threatened.
    The scare tactics that you refer to are the bits of information that we as voters need to make the informed choices to support our cause.
    We "average rednecks" need these little blurbs to keep us fired up while you refined folks can take much deeper thought and disscussion.
    We are in this present situation because of apathy due to having very little contrast in candidates and a party trying to inhabit middle and left ground that is already well represented. I hope we can avoid that in the gun debate.
     
  4. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Well said X-rap.
     
  5. No Fear

    No Fear member

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    Since you're going to quote me I need to clarify. Lapierre makes almost a million a year.
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    When I said "past behavior," I was referring to the laundry list of gun bans the nra supported (PM me for the list).

    I joined today (as an "associate" member for only $10) so I could get my name on their rolls that their lobbyists will show to the anti gun congress"men," not so I could pad Wayne's salary or get some stupid magazine to clog my trash can with.
     
  6. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    The greater problem is we overestimate the power of the NRA. They are influential to politicians who are already pro-gun. That doesn't help matters a whole heck of a lot in terms of bringing a greater number of people over to our side. I hear people say "we've got 3.5 million members! let's make it 5!" Yea, cause in a state like California with 55 million residents, 5 million people spread out around the country who can't vote in CA elections is REALLY going to make a difference?

    The NRA has for the most part become a partisan attack dog. That's fine, there are times when that's needed, and called for - but that's ALL they've become to a lot of people. That makes the 3.5-5mil number inconsequential - as for a lot of politicians it's easy to say "well - those are people who weren't going to vote for me anyways". They then turn around and run back to the base of the anti-movement, who they know will vote for them.

    This may be true - but there is an equal (sometimes greater than equal) and opposite reaction from the other side. Those tidbits of fire to keep the NRA base active, also is great motivation for the anti crowd. NRA sends out a call to action to raise money to fight legislation, guess what - the Brady crowd takes the same NRA call to action, quotes it - and uses it in their campaign.
    I don't think anybody's saying we have to move to the center on policy. I don't think we do, and certainly don't think we should. Where we do need to move to the center, is in presentation and image. Various groups have done a pretty good job at marginalizing the pro-gun movement as "fringe gun crazies" - which is extremely UNAPPEALING to a majority of people. So while the policies may remain firmly on our side - as long as our imagine is one of "those people" - we lose. As long as it's an "us vs them" argument - we lose. As long as the issue is seen as a partisan battle, we lose.

    If people want to support the NRA, that's fine - that's their choice. The NRA does do some good work, and certainly even with (what I think are) all their faults, they do remain the largest and most active lobby we have.

    I do think we need to do more. I don't think the NRA is enough.
    I think people rely on the NRA too much. I've seen people say on here "the NRA is what gives us a voice" or "the NRA is what influences politicians". No. not by any stretch of the imagination. What gives us a voice is by speaking up and making voices heard. Going out into the community, supporting causes on the local level (ya know, 'community organizing'..), and making your individual voices heard to the people in power.
    The NRA doesn't vote - you do. The NRA doesn't introduce non-gun owners to guns. The NRA doesn't change your neighbor's mind, or your friend's mind, or your family's mind. That's YOUR job.
    Sending the check is fine - but don't let that be the end of it. There's far more that needs to be done, and it's NOT going to happen via the NRA.
     
  7. Lonest@r

    Lonest@r Member

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    I guess that is my question also?

    Don't blame you for supporting the org. I'm simply questioning the effectiveness of our money and possibly the fact that those bits and blurbs keep supporters 'fired-up' and happy they help expose such things are smoke screen, meanwhile the NRA leaders pocket much of our membership fees that could otherwhise be better spent....

    Sounds like just another WallStreet CEO to me....

    BUT then again,
     
  8. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Again I don't think we as a group do any service by marginalizing our cause and watering down the issue.
    What should happen is when the NRA presents one of its tidbits of fire it should enflame the whole spectrum of gun owners from full auto cl3 crowd to the clays shooter. What seems to be the case is some don't worry about cl3 or hi cap pistols cause their gun only holds 2, 5, or 6 like they are safe from consideration. One has to only look at other countries and see how rapidly they have gone from resticting a few guns to outrigh confiscation and various storage schemes that require you to store your gun at some club or armory.
    Today the comments on the NRA have run the gammot of to hard and firey on the retoric to being AWOL on important causes and not getting NFA repealed, Holy crap it seems like they are right in the middle after all.
     
  9. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Look, I feel the pain of those of you that are Liberal and/or Democrat posting in a pro-gun forum.

    You probably don't like the NRA, even though they endorse numerous Dems.

    And...

    You probably don't like conservatives, even though they easily make up the vast majority of gun owners.

    However at the end of the day, there is some reason that you own a gun and participate here in this and other gun forums. While I appreciate your ownership and participation, I can't help but wonder why people so wholeheartedly support a party that is CLEARLY and COMPLETELY anti-gun.

    I know that most of you will say you are not one issue voters, and that is fine. But isn't the real problem identified by Lonestar, that he doesn't have a place to go to support gun rights because the NRA is too extreme for him?

    I think that is the price you will pay for being a Liberal, Democratic, gun owner. You aren't going to find a lot of 2nd amendment groups that fit you, because quite honestly, most 2nd amendment groups don't agree with much of the Liberal Democratic ideals of today.

    Like I said, your politics are you business, and I can understand your frustrations, but you have to recognize that the party and ideals that Liberals support are directly in contradiction to the 2nd amendment and gun rights overall.

    I would love to see a legitimate 2nd amendment group that is made up of Liberals and Democrats, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

    Maybe some of you will start one and prove me wrong.
     
  10. No Fear

    No Fear member

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    Well that's one way to mischaracterize and avoid the reasons why many of us don't like the nra. Can you even accept the fact that many people hate the nra because of it's poisoned bill in 1986? How bout support for the lautenberg ban under a republican congress?

    Your strategy: ignore history and call everyone a democrat who dares speak of nra's past support for gun bans.
     
  11. Lonest@r

    Lonest@r Member

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    Who said anything about Rep/Dem? I'm not a one issue voter, lots of issues come into consideration. I'm more of a 'constitutional', pro-family, anti-civil/special rights common sense voter, say conservative moderate. Lets leave it at that, don't want politics to get this one closed down.

    I just feel there are better ways..
    I say less crazy and more constitutional.

    Why not bring relative arguments to the debate, such as:
    PROHIBITION and DRIVING
    DUI vs. GUN relate death
    AUTO vs. GUN related accidents
    Assault Weapons vs. Crime Weapons

    Should we ban alcohol due to those irrespsonsible distillers/bartenders?

    How about the automakers that manufacture vehicles capable of exceeding speed limit?

    Should we ban weapons that mostly law-abiding own because it's scary looking?

    Why doesnt that type of data get printed by NRA. I think there where several recent threads looking for such data.
     
  12. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Change From Within

    Years ago, some youngster complained about the "system" and wished it could be different.

    Some older guy told him -- and likely was quite smug as he did so -- to sign up, run for office, get into the system and change it from within.

    The younger guy took him seriously.

    Today, decades later, the system is indeed different. Changed from within. By people who were that youngster.

    Took a long time, like forty or fifty years. And here we are.

    The NRA will only listen to input from its members. To whom else, indeed, should they listen?

    The only way to change the NRA is from within.

    For which task, you must be a member.

    Patience and persistence.

    In the meantime, you may want to actually keep your guns, and it seems to me they're your best hope for that.

    So, my suggestion is to join the NRA and be active in it. It is only from this that change will come.

     
  13. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Camslam - i'm not even reading your entire post. You're falling into the single most common pitfall of this whole thing. It's not left or right, dem or rep, conservative or liberal.

    Last I checked the constitution was an AMERICAN document.
    The question needs to be about "pro" or "anti" 2nd. Period. No if and buts or qualifiers.

    You wonder why there's no democratic gun rights groups? It's simple. Because if you even mention that you're a democrat, voted democrat, or even lean left - the crazies come out of the wood work telling you you're a hypocrite, unamerican, don't understand the issue - or are some sort of plant to try to disrupt the pro-gun cause. Why on earth should of any of [us] subject ourselves to that?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2008
  14. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    From Within

    See post #12.

     
  15. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    thanks for the edit greebly - mind works faster than the hands sometimes. :)
     
  16. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Lonestar wrote:

    Followed up with:

    It is what it is. The Dems are usually after the guns, the Repubs aren't. I was simply trying to explain why I don't think many Liberal Democrats find the NRA very appealing. Maybe you are different, but from what you posted in the OP, you don't care for the "wacko" tactics they employ.

    Sinixstar:

    I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I'm trying not falling into the same old trap of left/right, conservative/liberal.

    But can we at least call a spade a spade? It is because of anti-gun groups, organizations, and politicians, that our gun rights are constantly under attack.

    If I am off base by identifying Liberals and Democrats as the sole catalyst for the assault on our gun rights, please, by all means, correct me.

    The problem is you have:

    Clinton
    Schumer
    Obama
    Biden
    Lautenburg
    Kerry
    Kennedy
    Boxer
    Feinstein
    Durbin
    McCarthy
    Bloomberg - Liberal and Democrat before wanting to run for mayor of New York.
    Fenty
    Nagin
    Daley
    Blagovich - Governor of Illinois
    Rendell - Governor of Pennsylvania
    Doyle - Governor of Wisconsin
    80% of the rest of Democrats in Congress
    Famous Liberals in the Media (Rosie O'Donnel, Michael Moore, etc..)

    Each of these is an avowed anti-gunner, is on the record as being such, and up until a recent run for President, all but 2 of them have never claimed any different.

    These are not conservatives. Can you please provide me with one conservative that comes even remotely close to what these people have tried to do to the 2nd amendment and gun rights?

    I understand if the NRA isn't your cup of tea, but please don't blame the lack of activism for the 2nd amendment from Liberal Democrats on the NRA or any other pro 2nd amendment group. When you have the list of losers that I mentioned above, as THE representation of Liberal Democrats and how they feel about gun rights, THAT is the reason you don't see Pro 2nd amendment and pro gun rights groups that are Liberal and Democrat.
     
  17. Kentucky-roughrider

    Kentucky-roughrider Member

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    ArfinGrebly will said sir well said.
     
  18. Mrs. Armoredman

    Mrs. Armoredman Member

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    I can see that y'all are concerned about what the NRA is going to do for us. Well in the mean time write or email all your state reps. Email the NRA and ask them. Make them work for you and help them if you have the time.
     
  19. jnyork

    jnyork Member

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    I am one of those wacko redneck bitter voting NRA members and I dont give a hoot for your scornful elitist remarks.

    NRA all the way!!!
     
  20. Lonest@r

    Lonest@r Member

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    Umm, do what? Again, I don't think it is a Rep/Dem issue, but rather a issue of extreme fanatical behavior and the level of effectiveness that turns people off. For example, I know many McCain/Palin supporters turned off by such pro-gun speech.

    Just because I don't agree with one's religious organizations tactics does not make me athiest. Those looking for 'spiritual fruit' tend to overlook the 'spiritual nuts'.
     
  21. Rimmer

    Rimmer Member

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    I guess I'm as guilty as anyone for touting my view on the NRA.

    If I step back for a minute ....

    I'm a certified safety instructor and have been for years. In 04, through some effort, Ohio passed a concealed carry law and I was able to provide training for people so they could apply for a permit. To date over 120,000 have been issued a permit in Ohio.
    I've been involved in training for young shooters as well. All thanks to the NRA support literature, etc. Over 100 kids and their (sudo) safe parents went through the class. The NRA has an excellent education program. All good stuff. All positive.

    There may be another org out there that provides the same, I do not know.

    As to the political issues ahead. I'm concerned and have joined a grass-roots
    org here in Ohio.
    The NRA will always get a few dollars from me as well as any other org that will help the cause. I would hope we all find a way to involve ourselves so that my children's, children get to keep the guns. And be safe with them.

    Just my ol 2¢
     
  22. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Camslam:

    Go back and take a look at past legislation, and look at the actual recorded roll call votes in the house and the senate. The results may surprise you.
     
  23. taprackbang

    taprackbang member

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    WITH the exception of Ron Paul..
     
  24. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Lonestar: I'm going to try to explain this one more time. I'm not trying to paint you a certain way, I'm not trying to argue that you are one way or the other, I don't really care what your politics are, and I'm not trying to argue with you.

    What I'm saying is in answer to your problems with the tactics of the NRA. I've said there aren't any better organizations to my knowledge when it comes to broad, macro approaches to the 2nd amendment and gun rights.

    What you seem to have taken issue with is the way that the NRA portrays certain people, politicians, or issues in regards to gun rights.

    What I'm saying is while they are far from perfect, they are the best thing going at this point. You PERSONALLY may not be an athiest based on your problems with a certain religion, but when you belong to or support an organization that IS athiest, what does that say about you?

    That is the point I'm trying to make about Liberals and Dems. There are some Liberals on THR that I really respect, there are some that are whack jobs. The same can be said for Conservatives. The problem is ,the only thing we have to counter the assaults on the 2nd amendment from the whack jobs in charge of running this country, is the NRA. There are other groups, but they don't have near the same access, clout, and power that the NRA has. You may not like their tactics, but it is the best thing going.

    As I mentioned before, I would love to see Liberals/Democrats form a 2nd amendment rights group, but I just don't see it happening, and furthermore, it wouldn't make a bit of difference when that party is run by the the people I listed in my above post.

    If any of you think that you will bring more anti-gunners into our fold with honey, rather than vinegar, you are fooling yourself. That will work for moderates and people that are rational, but my experience has shown me that most of the anti-gunners are passionate, emotional, illogical people, they don't care about facts, truth, or reality when it comes to guns. So in the end, the tactics that the NRA employs I don't see they do much damage.

    But that is just my opinion.
     
  25. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Sinixstar: It wouldn't surprise me. The sheep that we have in Congress will go along with anything if they think it will get them re-elected or more money.

    There are plenty of "so-called" Conservatives that have voted for Gun Control in the past. Old Jon McShame is one of them, but at the end of the day, it is the Liberals and Democrats that have carried this torch and keep it burning bright, low these many decades.

    If you have proof otherwise, please share it with us.

    While you are at it, could you please explain to each of us how it came to be that the country's most liberal states, also have the most draconian gun laws? Or maybe I have my geography mixed up and California, New York, New Jersey, Massachussetts, Illinois, Wisconsin, District of Columbia are really Conservative areas that are pro-gun.

    Yep, I'm all mixed up.
     
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