NSSF Gun Owner Database

[TomVA]

Interesting long article for discussion. It alleges that gun manufacturers turned over gun buyer's identities without their knowledge to the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) , and the NSSF developed a large database, used this information for political purposes, and may have sold it to others. I know nothing about the integrity of the publisher of this article, Propublica, and would like to hear some feedback from members here. If true, the existence of such a database could have negative consequences in the wrong hands.

NSSF Gun Owner Database

"For years, America’s most iconic gun-makers turned over sensitive personal information on hundreds of thousands of customers to political operatives.

Those operatives, in turn, secretly employed the details to rally firearm owners to elect pro-gun politicians running for Congress and the White House, a ProPublica investigation has found.

The clandestine sharing of gun buyers’ identities — without their knowledge and consent — marked a significant departure for an industry that has long prided itself on thwarting efforts to track who owns firearms in America.

At least 10 gun industry businesses, including Glock, Smith & Wesson, Remington, Marlin and Mossberg, handed over names, addresses and other private data to the gun industry’s chief lobbying group, the National Shooting Sports Foundation. The NSSF then entered the gun owners’ details into what would become a massive database.

The data initially came from decades of warranty cards filled out by customers"

 

[JohnKSa]

Not to hijack the thread, but I do feel its worth making the point that warranty cards are just a data collection tool. I can't recall ever hearing of a firearm company denying a warranty claim because the person didn't fill out the warranty card for a gun they purchased.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why, that sort of information should only be used to keep guns out of the wrong hands.

 

[230RN]

^,^

Not to hijack the thread, but I do feel its worth making the point that warranty cards are just a data collection tool.

My suspicion approaching certainty is that if (if) "they've" ("anybody") has gone that far to establish a robust data base, they would not stop there in terms of data mining. E.g., just look at several "tell" forums right here on THR.

I can't recall ever hearing of a firearm company denying a warranty claim because the person didn't fill out the warranty card for a gun they purchase.

Irrelevant.

And it's the same old logical problem. "I haven't seen or recall it,'therefore' (by implication) it doesn't exist."

I haven't seen neutrons, either.

I'm not clear on whether NSSF having such a data base is a good thing or not. Surely, to defray anti firearms laws (by rallying the troops) is good, But having such a data base at all disturbs me in light of continuing reports of data invasions.

"We" are so concerned about de facto government "registration," yet a "private" data base kept by "friends" is "sorta OK."

Time was, when almost every American had "a rifle behind every blade of grass," it didn't really matter, but times have changed.

JohnKSa, that wasn't hijacking; that was a valid extension of the issues that should be brought up.

Terry, 230RN

{Had some trouble straightening out quotation coding.)

 

[Soonerpesek]

Irrelevant.

……deleted….


ETA:

I was typing while you were editing…

 

[230RN]

Soonerpesek, I had a bit of trouble with managing quotes simultaneously.

Unintended quotes within quotes; I finally resolved the mish-mosh.

Isn't there a song about letters crossing in the mail?

Terry

 

[George Dickel]

I'm pretty confident that all companies sell customer information. I've ordered products from one retailer and later started getting emails hawking similar products from other retailers.
A friend of mine and his wife were talking about purchasing a product, did no internet searching, just talking in their living room about it. A few days later they started getting email solicitations from companies that sell that product. They have a Alexis device in their living room.

 

[wayneinFL]

I'm looking through boxes to see what my Glock and S&W warranty cards say about privacy. I don't see warranty cards for the Glocks. The Smith and Wesson warranty cards on the newer guns say that failing to fill out the card does not void the warranty. Nothing saying that they will or will not share information.

The warranty card for my model 36 says the one year warranty started in December 1976. Even then they had marketing questions on the warranty card. It asks if my annual income is under $10K or over $10k. I vaguely remember getting a nickel for every fly I swatted in the waiting room of my dad's garage. I had negotiated that rate from a penny a fly, but they had to be recognizable as flies. Not sure if December 1976 was before or after I negotiated my raise, but either way it was definitely under $10K in 1976.

Back on topic, is anyone surprised that companies are sharing customer information with their largest trade group? I'd be surprised if they didn't. If it were any other industry nobody would bat an eye.

One of my Glock boxes has Bass Pro Shops tape on it. You think Bass Pro or any other chain store doesn't catalog your information? And share it?

 

[kidneyboy]

I know nothing about the integrity of the publisher of this article, Propublica, and would like to hear some feedback from members here.

Propublica, by all accounts, is a left leaning publication. That will either add or subtract integrity, depending on your point of view.

Personally I think they are agenda driven and this particular piece is intended to show a part of the gun community in a negative light.

 

[Boom Vang]

Propublica. Tells you everything you need to know about the integrity of the "information" presented.

 

[david58]

^,^


My suspicion approaching certainty is that if (if) "they've" ("anybody") has gone that far to establish a robust data base, they would not stop there in terms of data mining. E.g., just look at several "tell" forums right here on THR.


Irrelevant.

And it's the same old logical problem. "I haven't seen or recall it,'therefore' (by implication) it doesn't exist."

I haven't seen neutrons, either.

I'm not clear on whether NSSF having such a data base is a good thing or not. Surely, to defray anti firearms laws (by rallying the troops) is good, But having such a data base at all disturbs me in light of continuing reports of data invasions.

"We" are so concerned about de facto government "registration," yet a "private" data base kept by "friends" is "sorta OK."

Time was, when almost every American had "a rifle behind every blade of grass," it didn't really matter, but times have changed.

JohnKSa, that wasn't hijacking; that was a valid extension of the issues that should be brought up.

Terry, 230RN

{Had some trouble straightening out quotation coding.)

Failing to return a completed warranty card does not void the warranty on anything. That was settled in court many years ago. Just data collection.

 

[Walkalong]

{Had some trouble straightening out quotation coding.)

Trickier than the last software.....

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm not clear on whether NSSF having such a data base is a good thing or not. Surely, to defray anti firearms laws (by rallying the troops) is good, But having such a data base at all disturbs me in light of continuing reports of data invasions.

"We" are so concerned about de facto government "registration," yet a "private" data base kept by "friends" is "sorta OK."

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone having a database of firearm owners is a good thing. I don't even think it's "sorta ok". Even it if is private--if there is such a thing and I don't believe there is. Your data is private only until you give it to someone else. Once they have it, it's not private any more. Even if they mean well and try to protect it, there's a good chance it will eventually get leaked.

That is why I have never, ever filled out a single warranty card and sent it in. That is why I never intend to fill out a warranty card and send it in. They are just data collection tools and I am unwilling to help people collect my data.

When someone asks for your data, think about why they need it. If you can't come up with a good reason, then don't provide it. You may still end up in the database, but at least you won't have made it easy for them.

So what's the downside to not filling out warranty cards? As far as I can tell, there is no downside. I have never heard of a company denying a warranty claim because the owner failed to fill out and send in a warranty card.

As far as what to do about the current situation? It's a lost cause. The only thing we can do is let the various organizations involved know that they have displeased us. [sarcasm]I'm sure they will take it to heart and never do such a thing again. [/sarcasm]

 

[lemaymiami]

I operate under the assumption that data (information) has been turned into a product that can be bought and sold just about universally in today's world... What started as a way to gain sales info on your own customers has been turned into a commodity, plain and simple. Caveat emptor... (buyer beware).

That said, none of us live in caves, or hide out in back alleys (hopefully) so we'll all have to learn to live with the idea that "big brother" or that big retailer... will have info about us that it will use for its own benefit - not necessarily ours. I do get a laugh out of today's ads when the moment I make a purchase on line - I 'm certain to receive ads for that item or something related (after I already bought it...) for a few weeks afterwards... from a variety of sources. I suspect that these outfits are buying info that isn't exactly helpful.

 

[rust collector]

For many years warranty cards were a method of attempting to limit liability as well as gather marketing information. IMO it was foolish to submit them. However, they are useful for recall information, and required when rebates or incentives like additional magazines are offered with purchase.

As previously noted, all information in electronic form is subject to misappropriation. I have been known to change a letter or digit occasionally in an effort to track the source, but the better practice is to weigh privacy interests against whatever is being offered.

 

[SuperXOne]

The entire market value of Sturm Ruger is 692 million dollars.




To put that number in perspective, 692 million dollars would not buy UPS three big freighter airliners.

Elon Musk paid over sixty times the entire value of Ruger for Twitter and he’s lost 80% of his investment in Twitter (now X) and the smoking, twisted remains of X are worth ten times the value of Ruger and Musk may still be, the richest man alive.

The only Mom and Pop sized true gun company I know of is Ithaca, but the “big gun companies” are not even close to being large enough for investors like Warren Buffett.

It is a terrible business.

True, a man will buy a new gun when his wife is in the hospital (what-me?) and there is a strong demand.

But the products last a hundred years.

And in spite of new cartridges like the 360 Buckhammer (oh, I want one) the customer likely has several much like the new one, already.

In America, the real threat to our guns is public opinion.

When I was a kid every barber shop had spittoons, usually old coffee cans, for the customers.

Now, they don’t even have ashtrays out.

It’s still legal to smoke or chew tobacco.

But it ain’t as popular as it used to be.

The gun industry needs to make more guns, a boy would be proud to show off to his mother, or a mother would buy her boy for Christmas.

But the demand for steel and walnut guns, is just not there.

I have no quarrel with the gun industry desperately seeking new sales to keep up demand.

My only question, is when will there finally be a point where there’s no demand for another black plastic rifle, shotgun, or pistol?

I already own my AR, and I own two Ruger LCPs, and a black plastic Ruger All American .22.

Is there a bottom, to the well?

 

[HB]

I would imagine using this website provides much more data on a firearm owner’s location, demographics, interests, political leanings, appearance, and employer than any NSSF or OEM records could….

 

[kidneyboy]

I would imagine using this website provides much more data on a firearm owner’s location, demographics, interests, political leanings, appearance, and employer than any NSSF or OEM records could….

Cell phones and computers create a detailed database of your life. Most people know this and use them anyway.

the existence of such a database could have negative consequences in the wrong hands.

Which leads to - Why write an article like this? It's only to sway opinion.

 

[5whiskey]

Propublica is, in fact, on the very far left of the political spectrum. So far so, in fact, that i struggle to think of any equivalently far right leaning media organization. Which is OK, propublica can report on what they want to... but I've found their dramatic format to be over the top, and they seriously pick the wrong battles to "highlight" with sensational stories on ALL... THE... TIME. I remember they did something on how unfair drug prison sentences were. Apparently unable to find that alleged "20 years of prison for just some marijuana" person that we hear about but know doesn't actually exist, they did a story on a mother in federal prison for 10 years. Her crimes? Selling ounces of meth, and at one point a method lab caught her house on fire with children present. Propublica tried to twist that as grossly unfair. The drama they induce to a story by their pauses, scrolling, pictures, and format probably gets some people. But the meth mom story had to be a total bust. I doubt anyone could have read that, used a modicum of critical thinking, and come to the conclusion that meth mom needed a pardon (Obama refused to pardon her).

Because of that, I tend to read anything from them for entertainment purposes only. Sort of a "study the adversary" exercise.

 

[lemaymiami]

"Study the adversary" that's very very good advice... As a full time fishing guide I pay lots of attention to every move that PETA makes for example- since they'd cheerfully outlaw fishing (as well as hunting... ) if they could . Consider it a form of pest control...

 

[Basura Blanca]

Well, I live in a state that (among other things) actively promotes the sharing of gun-specific data with outside interests in the name of "science". Therefore this ship has sailed for me and 40M other people long ago. I'm well past worrying about my personal information falling into the wrong hands because it's an inevitability these days.

 

[JTHunter]

Speaking of the NSSF, almost every day I'm getting "voter guides" from these people in my email.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Pro Publica is perhaps the last bastion of real journalism left in North America. If you don't care for facts that's your problem, not theirs. Stick to your information silos if you want stuff spoon fed to you that always matches what you already believe but if you like to learn stuff they're a great source.

 

[tarosean]

I would imagine using this website provides much more data on a firearm owner’s location, demographics, interests, political leanings, appearance, and employer than any NSSF or OEM records could….

winner winner chicken dinner...

Ive never filled out a warranty card in my life. But I can guarantee my info is bought and sold daily.

 

[grampster]

Just a few thoughts after a couple beers and a great dinner.There is no privacy anymore.