Number of rounds used in defense going up?

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Stevel

Stevel

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Location
SE PA
While I own auto's I am a revolver guy at heart and usually carry one. I have been looking at a lot of real life shooting channels on YT lately. While more prevelant in officer involved shootings, seems like a lot of semi-auto shooters are treating their pistols like "bullet hoses" just putting out a stream of lead. Often multiple mags.

Wondering how these incidents will skew the round counts in future studies (when there is one) such as Ellifritz's https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
Which already had higher numbers for 9mm.

Has viewing these types of incidents caused anyone to switch from revolver to auto?
 
I believe that the hi-cap auto has
instilled in some, not all, shooters
the idea that "now I can afford to miss."

While missing is a reality in real-life
shootouts, the "I can afford to miss"
mentality does promote the repeated
well worn "spray and pray" outcome.
 
Whatever you happen to get, it will take "exactly" the number of rounds you need to solve it. And thats the "exact" number. :)

People are not scoring numbers on a target, and handgun rounds are poor stoppers. You might solve it with one round, or you might empty the gun and need to reload. You wont know until you know.

If you have more rounds on hand in the gun, you have more options.


You also need to be well versed and comfortable in shooting with and without sights, quickly, repetitively, and while moving. Small groups on a static bullseye target really dont mean squat as far as your skill level goes, unless youre shooting old school bullseye.

As far as "spray and pray" goes, thats simply a function of the shooter, and has nothing to do with the gun.
 
The Greg Elifritz study cited by the OP
was I believe a factor in the FBI
finally deciding to return to the 9mm.

The study bears out an old, old one
I remember reading about which was
conducted by the U.S. Navy. At the
time THE two most popular and used
calibers were .38 Special and .45 ACP.

The Navy study concluded that the .38
using the LRN bullet was 50 percent
effective in achieving one-shot stops.
Similarly the .45 JRN had a 65 percent
one-shot stop record.
 
Here in the Houston area we are seeing home invasions, thefts/carjackings while pumping gas at convenience stores, catalytic converter thefts, and just general armed robberies being done by 3-5 or more individuals as the norm. The more "organized" crimes are done by gangs of crooks and not lone assailants like was prevalent in the past. So you better be packing more rounds if you hope to make it out on the other side safely.
 
I have switched from revolver to auto primarily as a result of mass shootings, in particular the Greenwood Mall incident wherein ten rounds at 40 yards were required. It does seem to me that it may be wise to prepare for longer and more extended engagements.

Having said that, it still should be obvious that very few of us are ever going to need a gun for self-defense, and of that tiny percentage, only a miniscule fraction will ever need more than a few rounds or to fire at targets more than a few yards distant. In that light, I will continue to argue with folks who claim that we "need" a dozen rounds, spare magazines, extra guns, or what have you, and I will continue to maintain that a revolver - and a good dose of competence - is a perfectly reasonable choice for the armed citizen.

<edit> I will note that I still keep my trusted old .357 on my CCW, and even after a couple of months of intensive practice with the auto, I still am more comfortable and competent with the revolver. Perhaps I simply do not have the right auto, but for now I have to admit that I still would perform better in a fight with my old revolver in my hand.
 
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Every missed shot could be another liability case. Most are not cops with insurance and immunity from most things. I will never spray and pray because that's not how I was trained. Suppressive fire is not the same and your in control. Surviving is important, but so is not serving life in prison. Our current environment has far to many ichy trigger fingers.
 
The thing that always gets me here is, people seem to always want to just choose the easy way out, and say if they ever need it, that they only have to meet the "rule of threes", and not worry about anything else. And even there, its probably a pretty sketchy thing.

In other words, if they are actually getting any kind of training at all, which I think isnt the norm for most carrying a gun, they seem to be stressing the easiest possible, least effort route, if that.

Considering that back in the day, that "trained" police with revolvers were lucky to get around a 25% hit ratio, whats that going to be for an "untrained" civilian with a 5 shot J frame whos never done more with it than shoot at a bullseye target at their leisure at close range? Not that a high cap auto is likely to be a whole lot different either.

Gabe Suarez talks about "striving for mediocrity" and I think he has a very valid point. You shouldnt be striving for the basic easy stuff you're always told to expect youll get, but for the hard stuff you really, REALLY hope you never will. Not that you want either.

Longer range, and multiple opponents should be a regular part of your regular practice, as well as shooting in a more energetic fashion, and anything else that takes you out of your comfort zone in practice.

Also understanding that no matter what it is that you choose to carry, there are no magic bullets or calibers, and you need to continue to shoot until you no longer have to. That may be one round, or maybe everything you've got. You only have one part in this, and the other guy/guys may not be impressed with your gun or shooting skills, until you impress them.
 
AJC1 said:
Every missed shot could be another liability case. Most are not cops with insurance and immunity from most things. I will never spray and pray because that's not how I was trained. Suppressive fire is not the same and your in control. Surviving is important, but so is not serving life in prison. Our current environment has far to many ichy trigger fingers.
Click to expand...
Whats "spray and pray" to you?

I usually shoot in "bursts" of two or more rounds. And all rounds go where I was looking when I shot. If Im shootng you, youre getting shot until you are no longer standing there and or a threat.

Its ALL suppressive fire, or why else are you shooting? ;)
 
Had to look up Gabe Suarez.

Seems to be another chap who
makes a living convincing a gun
owner he should be an urban
military force of one.

And this force of one needs to take
on highly motivated street thugs
who have the steely discipline to
continue a fight no matter how
many of their comrades have
bitten the dust with many
multiple hits.

Recently Wilson Combat videos
featured the Bakersfield PD training
routine where only 10 rounds are
fired. Interesting concept.
 
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Suarez has his good and bad points, as most people in the business do. Most of what hes getting at isnt bad though, at least from a skills standpoint.

He does stress more of the aggressive side of things, which I think seems to be lost on a lot of people. Who here thinks self defense, is "defensive" in nature?

Personally, if I have to get into a fight I prefer his philosophy over those who are less aggressive. If you have to fight, then fight, and fight to win.
 
Why are we carrying guns then?

And if youre carrying it, isnt it your responsibility to be as competent as reasonably possible with it?
 
citizenconn said:
Here in the Houston area we are seeing home invasions, thefts/carjackings while pumping gas at convenience stores, catalytic converter thefts, and just general armed robberies being done by 3-5 or more individuals as the norm. The more "organized" crimes are done by gangs of crooks and not lone assailants like was prevalent in the past. So you better be packing more rounds if you hope to make it out on the other side safely.
Click to expand...

I appreciate that. While I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia, if I go in town I take a normal capacity auto with reload. But with the current administration we don't go in unless we have to, and don't go in at night.
 
Stevel said:
While more prevelant in officer involved shootings, seems like a lot of semi-auto shooters are treating their pistols like "bullet hoses" just putting out a stream of lead. Often multiple mags.
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing this. Seems the numbers of rounds fired in shootings aren't going up -- but the number of shootings and the national media coverage of shootings has gone way, way up.

What I have seen in the past couple years is more of a consciousness by officers to be restrained, both in deploying firearms and numbers of shots fired. Scrutiny of OISs is at an all-time high, and so is the liability factor.

Although we did have an interesting shootout a few days ago here in a (legal) pot shop; multiple shots fired at the armed security guard, he apparently got off a few rounds and may have actually hit one of the four robbers.
 
Old Dog said:
I'm not seeing this. Seems the numbers of rounds fired in shootings aren't going up -- but the number of shootings and the national media coverage of shootings has gone way, way up.

What I have seen in the past couple years is more of a consciousness by officers to be restrained, both in deploying firearms and numbers of shots fired. Scrutiny of OISs is at an all-time high, and so is the liability factor.

Although we did have an interesting shootout a few days ago here in a (legal) pot shop; multiple shots fired at the armed security guard, he apparently got off a few rounds and may have actually hit one of the four robbers.
Click to expand...
I think I saw that one on ASP. Pretty scary situation no matter what.
 
UncleEd said:
Had to look up Gabe Suarez.

Seems to be another chap who
makes a living convincing a gun
owner he should be an urban
military force of one.

And this force of one needs to take
on highly motivated street thugs
who have the steely discipline to
continue a fight no matter how
many of their comrades have
bitten the dust with many
multiple hits.

Recently Wilson Combat videos
featured the Bakersfield PD training
routine where only 10 rounds are
fired. Interesting concept.
Click to expand...
Gabe is local to me. He is arguably the original signal that started the red dot on duty and EDC handguns trend, and the very first to offer red dot on handgun specific classes for it. He's also very right winged, has a strong local following who organized with and shut down BLM and antifa locally when they tried their tantrums over here and failed bigly (hell yeah), a head filled ego that needs a garage door to fit inside of each room, and has a controversial past from his time with the police. Alan Normandy (Battlecomp Actual and another LEO retiree from CA living here in AZ) won't even dignify discussing it to give an idea about it.

As for the topic itself, our resident try hards will preach anything that supports their gospel so I won't even go into it it about this thread's topic as they certainly do NOT like hearing any other opinion but their own, and to be honest I am done trying to discuss those who can't see any what way but their own.

But you did mention Gabe, so hopefully you got some insight about him to make up your own mind about him.
 
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The_Quartermaster said:
our resident try hards will preach anything that supports their gospel
Click to expand...
For the benefit of those (few) of us here who apparently haven't been paying attention, what is the gospel here?

Because, frankly, I see a lot more diverse opinions on the RKBA and all things firearms-related in this forum than almost all the others.
 
Stevel said:
Which already had higher numbers for 9mm.

Has viewing these types of incidents caused anyone to switch from revolver to auto?
Click to expand...
There hasn't been any incidents which made me switch calibers or to a gun with either a higher capacity or more than a subcompact nor even a pocket gun.

Remember, a lot of these articles and footage on the medias is about content, people want to hear what they like to hear or new subjects to stay interesting or at least still relevant.
 
citizenconn said:
Here in the Houston area we are seeing home invasions, thefts/carjackings while pumping gas at convenience stores, catalytic converter thefts, and just general armed robberies being done by 3-5 or more individuals as the norm.
Click to expand...
Albuquerque is the same: 4 people per group of attackers is the standard. Although, often 1 of them is the driver and is not directly participating in the attack.
 
Recently I watched a newscast of gang members having some kind of pow wow showing off their handguns and I noticed that many were waiving pistols with very noticeably extended magazines. I presume that most of those guys are not "trained" gunfighters but many probably have experience in some sort of shooting conflict plus being criminals they always have the element of surprise. My point is that I once thought that a skilled shooter with cool head and a 5-6 shot revolver could defend themselves from most situations but after watching that video I am not so sure anymore.
I am a revolver guy and in pistols I prefer the 45 ACP I was (am) in the process of finding a compact 6-7 shot 45 ACP for CC but I am having second thoughts and beginning to think that a higher capacity (10+1) 9 mm is a better choice.
 
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