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Number of rounds used in defense going up?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Stevel, Oct 31, 2022.

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  1. TomJ

    TomJ Contributing Member

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    This really isn't complicated. In a way what we're dealing with is a math problem. It will take X number of rounds hitting a vital area to stop an attacker. That may be one or many, depending on a number of factors. You should also consider the number of misses as while it's possible that every round you fire will hit a vital area, I wouldn't count on it. Shooting at a range while standing still is not the same as shooting while moving while being shot at. The number of rounds hitting a vital area times the number of misses is how many rounds you'll need to stop one attacker. If you multiply the number of attackers you need to multiply the number of rounds you need. Again, it's nothing more complicated than that. There are people who live in areas where a single attacker is the norm, although I wouldn't count on that. There are also people who live in areas where multiple attackers is common. It's not unreasonable for those people to see things differently and make different decisions in regards to what they carry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  2. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    If you give me even a 2 round head start with any AR I've built and there won't be a plate left to hit at 150 yards by the time your friend gets to shooting his 30-30. I'm not a young guy by any means, though I'm pretty gung ho when it comes to shooting.

    Just because someone uses an AR-15 doesn't mean they don't know how to use it effectively. I am not a big boy in the gun world or any other. I just like making, owning and shooting accurate guns. No offense intended.

    I do see a lot of young folks at the tactical range I'm forced to go to now since my old range closed that could not hit water with their a$$ if you dropped them in the ocean. Others of them are pretty good though and seem to pay attention.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  3. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    But you are making it complicated by using math that uses common core rationale that no matter where we live, we're all in uniform with one narrative of thinking and no room for individual subjective goals of carrying and for local risk assessment.

    You're also trying to lecture from a false position of higher ground on said subject. You have no SME authority to do so or to tell anyone what they should be doing and by giving fallacy appeals to argue by either, because that's nothing more than superimposing yourself wrongly into the equation. It's extrapolating the topic with very quixotic replies when a certain group feels threatened by dissent to their way or the highway of EDC carrying semantics.

    Again, you are free to do you. But again also, you are not free to tell me what I should do as you do. When you use the words "YOU, SHOULD, BE and DOING", you are no longer speaking for yourself and wrongly placing yourself as an authority figure.

    And since you are trying to talk the walk, I will ask you the same as I would with others trying to talk down and lecture which sets off my poser try hard larper BS flag detector. What is your resume here? How many gunfights have you been in and citations please? Where were you trained and what's your current profession? If one is going to tell me what I should be doing, they better darn well an impressive background on said subject. No legitimacy, no care.
     
  4. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    :thumbup: You're right, but...

    Ya know, some people (not me) think it matters who is pulling the trigger in this math problem. ;)
    Male attacker requires multiple hits of Gold Dot 9mm to stop - In this equation some people (not me) think its because LE was pulling the trigger:
    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/v...deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

    In flawed math (to which some subscribe, not me) if a civilian had the same ammo and made the same hits, it would only take two rounds.

    Next level flawed math is a civilian would only need a couple rounds of 32 FMJ to stop the attacker; No, (what am I thinking) Flawed Math 101 attackers are anticipated to run away when they draw the 32 from their pocket and are busy trying to rack the slide to chamber a round. :evil::neener:
     
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  5. sgt127

    sgt127 Member

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    From what I’ve seen. You would be in a very small minority. I see people hosing off rounds at 7 yards with a handgun and proudly point out 3-4 hits. On the paper. Out of a full magazine.

    Adding the stress of shooting against someone they know is better than them under time. They loose it.
     
  6. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    That's not true, I see people at matches for the first time knowing that they're going to be competing against better shooters and still outperform better than the narrative being spoken here.

    Generally gun people who do these things are not a minority. maybe a minority to the rest of the nation but amongst ourselves, don't fool yourself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2022
  7. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    Only two people in history ever complained about having too much ammo. One was on fire and the other was trying to swim. :D

    In all seriousness, an honest and frank disagreement is fine, but I see an awful lot of garden variety bickering going on in this thread. My suggestion: Knock off the bickering.
     
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  8. Mikhail Weiss

    Mikhail Weiss Member

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    Q: Has viewing these types of incidents caused anyone to switch from revolver to auto?

    A: No.

    Longer Answer:
    I switched from an 8-shooter .45 ACP to to a 16-round 9mm while working in a convenience store after a truckload of workers (12) stopped in, chatted in a language I didn’t understand, and kept giving me the stink-eye.

    I’m not saying they were necessarily contemplating no good, but a regular customer did stop in, eyeballed them, didn’t like what he saw, and asked if I was comfortable. I wasn’t. Here’s why: our local law enforcement had already informed me that gangs often placed members with traveling construction crews so they had reason to be mobile and to ply the various elements of their trade. A vanload of such fellows had attempted to kidnap a female jogger from the adjacent neighborhood in broad daylight not too long before.

    So I think of things like this:

    You have no control over how many rounds may be needed to stop a bad guy.
    You do have control over how many rounds you may bring to the fight.
     
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  9. Stevel

    Stevel Member

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    Thank you all for the replies. They are all pretty informative.

    I may have found the answer to my original post...at least for civilians. According to the trainers Tom Givens has trained, describing 64 gunfights, 11 rounds should be enough. YMMV. Bottom line: carry what you want.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2022
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  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Most of the well known trainers don't participate in forums like this. Why, they don't need to take grief from anonymous, self proclaimed and rude 'experts'. They may respond to specific but not enter into the general fray. They participate in vetted and closed forums to avoid such. They may have blogs or Paetron pages. Facebook that is closed.

    They used to participate in the beginning then ...

    When someone talks about posting your resume - go ahead.
     
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    What does anything in this post have to do with the original post?
    Students, not trainers. I would never draw conclusions from a sample of 64 data points. There are far too many variables.
    It might be, or not. One should consider how long it might take to fire n rounds or n+5--and how likely one would be able to do do so should that many be needed.
    Reloads? That wasn't part of the discussion.
    But the question was not one of how many rounds to carry. It was whether the number used is ind\creasing, with the twist added about persons reportedly emptying their guns.
     
  12. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    I'm friends with some of them, been trained under most. They generally do stay away from commenting. However I know of three that sometimes let the trolls get to them.
     
  13. Stevel

    Stevel Member

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    1. It has to do with the original post because I was asking how many rounds were used.

    2. Tom Givens' business is certifying trainers, so his students are trainers.

    3. Total rounds used was part of the original question, which if more than the gun holds would entail reloads.
    Which I noted as: "seems like a lot of semi-auto shooters are treating their pistols like "bullet hoses" just putting out a stream of lead. Often multiple mags."

    4. The guy making the video is a subject matter expert as what he does is review live shooting in the real world videos. His observation of roughly 4000 videos is zero civilian reloads, which would give some estimation of less than 15 rounds and not firehose spraying as several of the police shootings show.

    As I said, YMMV. Like it, don't like it. Doesn't matter to me.
     
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  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The students in that survey were not trainers.
    That's generally accepted. The issue is partly the time it takes to reload. In a typical civilian defensive encounter, the defender may have a second and a half to draw, fire, and stop an attacker. Tough to shoehorn in a reload.
    You missed me.
     
  15. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

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    Really wasn’t looking for a resume, but for someone who currently trains to comment….”yes, we currently train to stop the threat with 3-5 shot bursts to center mass” or “I’m a current trainer and you are way wrong”. That’s it. Wasn’t thinking that the trainers at Thunder Ranch would suddenly appear. I’m no expert. I’ve taken three courses….one for my CHL nearly 20 years ago (not much training there), one for an advanced handgun, and one for counter-ambush concepts. We were taught drawing from concealment, placing 3-5 pointed shots to center mass at about 3-7 yards….typical close-up stuff. I didn’t agree with everything, but that was the course.
     
  16. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    They train failure to stop drills. Formerly known as the Mozambique.
     
  17. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    That is "good news" for gun owners unfortunately stuck under a 10 round limit; Sig 365, Hellcat, Glock 48/26 add a 2nd gun ("AKA "back-up") for options.
     
  18. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I used to feel that way (still do to a degree, don’t need anything but my CCW and one reload to make me feel happy) but then in the span of two years in my low crime rural area we had a string of daylight home invasions and a mass shooting at a little bank, which included a slain LEO, and during a drive home from the city we saw a nutter get shot down by the cops, on the free way as we passed by (he had apparently went on a drug fueled rampage on the road and shot some poor lady on the interstate). Not to mention later Live PD featured not one but two emotionally disturbed knife wielders who needed multiple close range bean bag rounds to stop them from advancing on local LEO, in the town my kids got to school.

    Drilled in that these days there’s no reason not to be ready for anything out there. Armed and practiced.

    That poor firefighter in Chicago could likely have used more than the 5 in his snubbie, maybe might have hit the thug who eventually killed him (it’s on ASP somewhere, yes leaving cover and poor marksmanship didn’t help the victim either).

    Plus, for me, I’ve always found even the smaller 9mms a bit easier to get good hits fast over snubbies, especially one handed. But that’s just me.
     
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  19. jar

    jar Contributing Member

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    What is ASP?
     
  20. JR24

    JR24 Member

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  21. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    By saying the "decree" that there's no reason not to be ready for anything, is still going to be subjective though and as it should be, despite all the attempts to hand-wring the subject.

    A G18 with a 33 round magazine still wouldn't have mattered against four, we are trying to appeal to ignorance with this nonsensical argument of 1 with a snub revolver against 4 to falsely invalidate revolvers, because so would an SMG or an M4 with these numbers. Stop trying to pretend that you're John Wick here, this is a formal conversation that may affect some people into misbelieving that a duty size will suddenly give them super powers that even most shooters in the circuits would have issues with; we're not all like Jerry Miculek here.
     
  22. defjon

    defjon Member

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    Well, that's too bad. Sounds like a great recipe for elitism, walled off echo chambers and a missed experience of shared information.

    Trolls and idiots are going to be everywhere. Welcome to the internet! We used to be able to laugh, shrug, and find the benefits of such mass communication forums.

    Do you suppose Rittenhouse or the guy that stopped the Greenwood shooting were on these super secret squirrel special little orphan Annie codeword forums?

    Walling off and sequestering seems counterintuitive to the whole point of this excercise.
     
  23. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    No one is trying to be John Wick, so why do you keep trying to make it sound like they are, simply because they might say you should try and be as prepared as possible? Why wouldn't you try to be as prepared as possible? Or is that making you uncomfortable because you arent, and youre trying to deflect?

    Your skills are more important than what you carry, and from what you learn, while trying to attain those skills, you learn what works best, and will likely give you the best results, and how the trickle down goes in that respect as the size of the gun goes down.

    If you can shoot a 5 shot J frame or something like an LCP as well as you can a full size auto, great on you. I dont think that is anywhere near the norm, and from what Ive seen at the various places Ive shot, shooting full size guns is enough of a challenge for a lot of people, and once you start to ramp up the difficulty past basic type shooting, it becomes even more of a challenge.

    There is only one way I know of to figure this all out, and you do actualy have to put in the time, effort, and ammo to get somewhere realistic, and then continue to maintain that. You cant get that here by talking about it.
     
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  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The conversation has drifted far from the original question
     
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