NY legal “firearm”?

[Jessesky]

As some of you may know, my legal residence is NY due to my job, though I spend half of time in Colorado to enjoy the outdoors at another residence.

I walked into my local gunshop the other day when they showed me this “firearm”. I’ve seen this with the shockwave shotguns, black aces tactical, etc. but never with an ar

Unlike the franklin armory ar, the barrel is still rifled. It’s less than 16”. They told me it is not a pistol Because it has the magwell outside of the grip, and two separate vertical grips, it has an arm brace, and a detachable mag. Legally they say it is a “firearm”.

They will sell it to me, but I want to make sure I don’t go to prison if I get pulled over. Anyone hear about these? They had a semi auto ak shotgun as well

 

[DocRock]

That is an "assault weapon" under the SAFE Act. I strongly recommend that you seek legal advice in the state of NY before purchasing.

 

[RickD427]

Be very careful here. Your biggest enemy will be state laws that are not entirely in sync with federal statutes.

I can only speak to California law, but New York is highly similar.

Under federal law, the pictured weapon would not be a "Handgun" because its designed to be fired with two hands. The federal statute defines a handgun as being designed to be fired from a single hand (refer to 18USC(a)(29)), but California law contains no such "single hand" provision (refer to California Penal Code sections 16640(a) and 16530(a)). Under California law, the pictured weapon is a handgun (assuming that I'm looking at an arm brace in the photo) or a short barrel rifle (if I'm looking at a collapsible stock). The weapon also possesses many features which would make it an "Assault Weapon" under California law (refer to California Penal Code section 30515) which is a felony to possess if not registered or permitted as an Assault Weapon. California no longer offers registration to non-exempt persons and no private person that I'm aware of has ever been able to obtain a permit.

 

[Theohazard]

As some of you may know, my legal residence is NY due to my job, though I spend half of time in Colorado to enjoy the outdoors at another residence.

Just to clarify in case you’re not aware, federal firearms law says you’re a NY resident during the time of year that you’re living in NY, and then you’re a CO resident during the time of year that you’re living in CO.

So while you’re living in CO you can buy any firearm in CO that any other CO resident could, at least according to federal law (I doubt CO has any further residency requirements, but it’s worth looking into).

 

[Conelrad]

That would be up to the cop that nabs you, as the entry point to a nebulous web of legal caca.

Conelrad

 

[Theohazard]

As to the original question, it’s definitely a generic non-NFA “firearm” under federal law: it’s not a rifle since it doesn’t have a stock, it’s not a pistol since it has a VFG, which the ATF says redesigns it to be fired with two hands (federal law says a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand), and it’s not an NFA AOW since it has an OAL over 26” (the threshold for concealment).

The issue is what it is according to NY law: Maybe the SAFE Act never addressed these types of firearms so they’re legal under NY law? I have no idea; I doubt a NY dealer would sell a firearm that’s illegal in NY, but you never know. I suggest you buy firearms like this in CO using your CO residency and leave them there (provided they’re legal there, of course).

 

[Scooter22]

The SAFE Act has a list of features that make it an "Assault Weapon" under the law. It's a semi auto first. Then itsgot a pistol grip, detachable mag, forend pistol grip, looks like flash hider. Not to mention a barrel under 16". I wouldn't touch it no matter what they say. Your the one who will be caught with it. jmho.
• A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following military characteristics:

a. Folding or Telescoping Stock b. Protruding Pistol Grip
c. Thumbhole Stock
d. Second Handgrip or Protruding Grip that can be held by non-shooting hand e. Bayonet Mount
f. Flash Suppressor g. Muzzle Brake
h. Muzzle Compensator
i. A threaded barrel designed to accommodate the above j. Grenade Launcher

 

[<*(((><]

Ask if they mind if the local firearms compliance expert from the police force comes and looks it over before you purchase it.

 

[Texas10mm]

The AK type firearm is breaking federal law. It's legally a pistol due to barrel length and brace. But once you put the vertical foregrip on it it becomes a NFA SBR. I sure hope they have the $200 tax stamp for that.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=can+I+put+a+vertical+foregrip+on+my+ar+pistol&t=brave&ia=web

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...er-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

 

[heyjoe]

i wouldnt want to be the test case in new york or colorado. its not worth it.

 

[Theohazard]

The AK type firearm is breaking federal law. It's legally a pistol due to barrel length and brace. But once you put the vertical foregrip on it it becomes a NFA SBR. I sure hope they have the $200 tax stamp for that.

Not exactly. Adding a VFG to a pistol either makes it into an NFA AOW if the OAL is less than 26” or a non-NFA “firearm” if the OAL is greater than 26”. OAL on an AR pistol is measured from the muzzle (not including any non-permanently-attached muzzle devices) to the end of the buffer tube. The current ATF opinion seems to be that you don’t include the pistol brace as part of the OAL.

Adding a VFG to a pistol doesn’t ever make it an SBR. An SBR is a rifle, and a rifle needs a stock.

That firearm looks like it has an OAL over 26”. But even if it didn’t and it was an AOW, they wouldn’t need a $200 tax stamp; dealers don’t need tax stamps, the people buying them do. And transferring an AOW is only a $5 tax stamp anyway.

(This is all federal law. I don’t know about NY law.)

 

[entropy]

They told me it is not a pistol Because it has the magwell outside of the grip,

That's State law, not Federal. Sounds like this is a case of trying to stay legal with State Law, while running afoul of Federal. (the VFG on a pistol, because by Federal law that is a pistol, not a "firearm")
<monty python voice> Run Away!</monty python voice>

 

[Theohazard]

the VFG on a pistol, because by Federal law that is a pistol, not a "firearm"

Per federal law, it was no longer a pistol the moment the VFG was added. After that point it’s either a generic non-NFA “firearm” or an NFA AOW depending on its overall length. See post #11.

 

[entropy]

Cool so I can put a VFG on my 10.5" AR with an SBa3 on it? I didn't think so.

 

[Theohazard]

Cool so I can put a VFG on my 10.5" AR with an SBa3 on it? I didn't think so.

I didn’t say that. But you said:

(the VFG on a pistol, because by Federal law that is a pistol, not a "firearm")

But a firearm can’t be a pistol if it has a VFG, so that’s not correct. That’s was what I was referring to. Also, the firearms in the OP’s pic look like they’re over 26” overall length, in which cause they’d be non-NFA “firearms” and not NFA AOWs. But either way, they’re not pistols.

 

[entropy]

A cop NY is just going to see "evil gun", as is a judge (and/or jury) in NY.

Buy one in CO without the VFG and you'll be just fine, Jessesky.

 

[Theohazard]

A cop NY is just going to see "evil gun"

That’s most likely true. Even if these non-NFA “firearms” are technically NY legal (and I have no idea if they are, though I’d be surprised that a NY dealer is selling them if they’re illegal), a NY cop isn’t likely to know they’re legal. Even if the OP is technically not breaking NY law, it might cost him some aggravation — or worse — to prove it.

 

[Scooter22]

That’s most likely true. Even if these non-NFA “firearms” are technically NY legal (and I have no idea if they are, though I’d be surprised that a NY dealer is selling them if they’re illegal), a NY cop isn’t likely to know they’re legal. Even if the OP is technically not breaking NY law, it might cost him some aggravation — or worse — to prove it.

Very good post. Thats the whole problem. It's bad enough with States making their own rules but now you have these "other" firearms that are trying to go between the lines. It leaves a honest gun owner "dancing on the tip of a needle". But the gun owner is going to get problems first. I like the Mossberg Shockwave and considered getting one. But from what I understand they come with "paper work" to show they are NFA/Federal leagle. But if a local cop sees it and thinks that looks like what the criminals carry your going to have to prove your not breaking laws in court. No thank you.

 

[Craig_AR]

According to the company Dark Storm Industries this is a
Dark Storm DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon 5.56 Black
And that page says
The DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon does not fall under the definition of an "Assault Weapon" in CT or NJ. NOT Legal for MA, NY, CA, MD.

• 
  
  • It is not a RIFLE, as it does not have a stock and is not designed to be fired from the shoulder.
  • It is not a PISTOL, as it has a barrel length of 12.5" and features a forward vertical grip, as it designed to be fired with two hands.
  • It is not an AOW, as this firearm has an overall length greater than 26", is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and features a forward vertical grip.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=
So it appears your NY location is a no-no. As for in CO, I opine like others that your immediate problem will be the opinion of the LEO who notices you carrying it.