NY Times: "The Rise of the Armed Left"

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We are trending into the usual noise and bashing all those who don’t pass the litmus test which you think is most important. Close to a close.

Seems to be more the norm than the exception anymore. Folks want to over-generalize and feel the need to use condescension in an attempt to make others beliefs look wrong/stupid. Those types of arguments are especially effective in scenarios like this where the other side is not present. Since these types of threads always tend to go sour, I'm surprised they're even allowed at all.
 
The citizens of this country are very divided with many only interacting with those of same point of view. Having discussion like this even though it may lead to verbal blows is beneficial. Not exchanging views from those in the other "bunker" is no good.
 
This is something any normal person should be able to comprehand and relate too.
Sadly, over 50% of the US population lives in just ±30 counties; half of those in urban densities that make swinging an umbrella a dangerous thing. Those people have so little connection with how their food arrives at the corner store as to imagine that it is "made" in the back. Their concept of "hunting" for food is walking six extra block to get "healthier" food.

Perversely, those megacities are also the ones where an "ordinary" person is most likely to become a crime victim. Those people do not need arms to hunt; they need arms to not become "prey."

Equally perversely, those same metropolises are the ones with the most restrictive control of arms, and to the least effect upon criminality.

We can ascribe all manner of causative motivations to the above phenomena. Unfortunately, we humans oft overuse Occam's Razor. The side of the argument that does not agree with our own will use that as an "ah ha" moment and wish to dismiss the entire argument by way of the logical fallacy of false equivalency. Matters not in which direction the forensic error occurs, it's still wrong.

Sadly, what appears to be the case is that the mass media, who clearly sees their financial success in the concentrated urban 50%, becomes an "echo chamber" for what that population believes, or has been told to believe. And then that same media decries the very "polarization" they themselves are guilty of.
 
I don't want to veer too far into politics, as I don't want this shut down. You'll notice I used the word often, not all or every. While there may be some countries with some socialist policies who are not oppressive, in recent history I don't know of a political system that has caused more death and misery than communism and socialism. There is a percentage of those on the far left who have been unable to force this on us at the ballot box and are now using violence and intimidation to do so. To claim, as the article does, that they're arming themselves due to threats from the right is nonsense.

Of course some one who wants a single payer health care system is not necessarily going to force the issue at gun point. That does not excuse the actions of those that are using violence. The fact that there are governments that are not communist/socialist that are oppressive does not excuse the actions of those who are. You can have bad actors with different beliefs.

I have always wondered why communism is the subject of so much obsession. There are lots of terrible systems that have come and gone (feudalism, for example), but people seem fixated on communism. Fascism has surely killed as many as communism, and recently, so why are you not worried about that? There is a greater threat of that across the world today. You don't see anyone advocating Soviet-style communism; it had its day, and has essentially come and gone, but fascism is out there all the time, a perpetual threat.

And is there really a (significant) percentage of the left that is using 'force and violence' to espouse communism? I am sure there are some old reds still living in Brooklyn who long to take to the barricades, but the use of force and violence on the left essentially ended in the 1970s with the disbanding of the Weather Underground and similar groups. Since then, violent resistance to political change has been seen more on the right, with the Bundys, the Militia Movement, Tim McVeigh, Christian Patriots, and their ilk. This article points out that the left is just now potentially arming themselves, and it an aberration, really, post 1970s. Only time will tell if it becomes a thing again.

Each of these movements has essentially been a reaction to the inability of a group to push their values through political means. So, now that we have a right-oriented administration and congress, some the left may turn to non-peaceful means. And that is what happened on the other side when Clinton and Obama were in office. In both cases, the groups politcal impotence led to armed (but normally just noisy rather than violent) resistance.
 
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I have always wondered why communism is the subject of so much obsession. There are lots of terrible systems that have come and gone (feudalism, for example), but people seem fixated on communism. Fascism has surely killed as many as communism, and recently, so why are you not worried about that? There is a greater threat of that across the world today. You don't see anyone advocating Soviet-style communism; it had its day, and has essentially come and gone, but fascism is out there all the time, a perpetual threat.

And is there really a (significant) percentage of the left that is using 'force and violence' to espouse communism? I am sure there are some old reds still living in Brooklyn who long to take to the barricades, but the use of force and violence on the left essentially ended in the 1970s with the disbanding of the Weather Underground and similar groups. Since then, violent resistance to political change has been seen more on the right, with the Bundys, the Militia Movement, Tim McVeigh, Christian Patriots, and their ilk. This article points out that the left is just now potentially arming themselves, and it an aberration, really, post 1970s. Only time will tell if it becomes a thing again.

Each of these movements has essentially been a reaction to the inability of a group to push their values through political means. So, now that we have a right-oriented administration and congress, some the left may turn to non-peaceful means. And that is what happened on the other side when Clinton and Obama were in office. In both cases, the groups politcal impotence led to armed (but normally just noisy rather than violent) resistance.

Edit: I deleted what I just wrote as it's way over the line in regards to being political, which is not the goal of this forum. We obviously see things differently, which is fine. I am in favor of everyone, regardless of their political affiliation taking advantage of their 2A rights as long as they do so responsibly.
 
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Gun owners need to stay united. Politicians use guns as a political football in an attempt to manipulate voters. Our message to all political parties should be the same, that we will defend the 2A.
 
I think SRA just figured out that their survival may depend on gun ownership and training, something most people here have known for a long time.

I'm thinking a lot of these people who all of a sudden feel a need to own a gun are probably city dwellers who depend on gov't services like police protection, public transportation, well lit streets, garbage service, snow plows, etc. The problem is they have already created laws in many cities and states that will deny them the ability to carry a firearm and look after their own security when the gov't fails them.

So which is it, is your RKBA a good thing or a bad thing? Maybe now we're starting to melt the ice a little and people are starting to understand the importance of one's RKBA. The threat to one's survival could come from anywhere, not just a bunch political nut jobs like ANTIFA. It could be in just about any form.

The colonists thought they were being suppressed by the king so they armed themselves and went to war. Native Americans did the same thing, so did the Confederacy.

The BPP believed it was the gov't that was the problem so they armed themselves. I was around when the real Black Panther Party was active. Those guys were a cops worst nightmare in Oakland. Government suppression energized the party and generated support in the black community. Now the socialist left (SRA and ANTIFA) believes it's the present adm. and the nationalists (Fascists) that support it. There's always going to be somebody who doesn't like the present political situation and where they fit into it. Some of those people are going to get cranky and try to change it with a gun. About the best anyone can do when that happens is to have your own gun and know how to use it. I guess we're about to find out the value of concealed carry and training.:)
 
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The NRA does much of its work to fight second amendment distractors right there in Washington D.C. While there, they have to play pretty much the same game other lobby groups play or they will be lost in the sauce. The method used is the same the opposing side uses and they do need supporters to fund the cause.

I hesitate to think where we would be without the work they have done over the years. Mistakes have been made for sure and mistakes will continue to be made, but overall, they have done a reasonable job for our cause.

I respect the fact they’re THE gun lobby and have done the work, but while the 2A is important, I can’t stand with an organization (and some of its individual members) that openly derides me. They need to fight for the 2A. They should fight for the 2A. I’m not paying them to fight for any other cause. They need to cut out the other stuff, or I’ll be cancelling my life membership. I’m no socialist, but when their recent magazine cover is primarily anti-socialist, it makes me wonder why I belong to a gun rights organization that is just an arm of the Republican Party and currently says as much or more about social policy than guns.
 
Wisco-put simply; Only one party in our (for all practical purposes) two-party system is (somewhat) Pro-2A. That is the Republican party. I don't agree with most of their platform, and I actually do agree with some of the other party's stands on some things. I don't vote FOR Republicans, so much as AGAINST Democrats-at least those who aren't pro-2A. I did vote for a Democrat locally recently, as I know her personally, and her family, and she is definitely NOT anti.
 
I actually read the article. And some of the responses. They don't sound like the stereotype-scary-leftists that some here are painting them as. They sound a lot like the people on this forum. Normal. They are getting into shooting sports for the same reasons everybody here does. And when it comes to threats or confrontation, they have the same mindset as most on this forum do: their firearms are for sporting and defensive purposes, not offensive or criminal purposes.

Some of them are late to the RKBA party and don't yet understand semi-auto rifle ownership. But I've seen people evolve over time. I don't think they are the ones who talk trash about another civil war. It seems to me that the pro-bellum mongers are from a place a lot closer to home than the liberals who are just now getting interested in arms.
 
Wisco-put simply; Only one party in our (for all practical purposes) two-party system is (somewhat) Pro-2A. That is the Republican party. I don't agree with most of their platform, and I actually do agree with some of the other party's stands on some things. I don't vote FOR Republicans, so much as AGAINST Democrats-at least those who aren't pro-2A. I did vote for a Democrat locally recently, as I know her personally, and her family, and she is definitely NOT anti.

This changed at some point. I need to find the source, but in the early 90s the NRA gave 1/3 of its political donations to Democrats, 2/3 to Republicans. In 2016, 99% went to Republicans.

Who gave up on who first? I don’t have the answer, but I’d suspect the NRA was dumped as the D platform went anti. Before my political life, so I don’t know.

The reasons I don’t vote typically D or R are partially gun related, but all freedom and economic related.

All I’m trying to say in this thread is that pro-gun groups often exclude other pro-gun people based on uneccessary distinctions. The premier gun rights organization and some of its most prominent voices have actively stated they are very much for some things I am very much against, and vice versa. It doesn’t have to be that way when you’re fighting for a right and you need allies of different backgrounds.

I wouldn’t join the NRA today. Nor wold I join a socialist rifle club. I’d join a non-partisan organization that actually kept a laser focus on the issue and worked to a specific end - keeping the right, without the social policy noise.
 
One of the NRA's big failings is not to be reaching out across the aisle. They frame themselves as pretty right wing

I don't want to sound patronizing, but this statement doesn't seem to reflect a perspective informed by history.... The NRA (as well as many moderate forums) was once very party neutral in an attempt to reach out to the Ds, and (IMO) they (we) were back stabbed big time. It seems like one after another D candidate who got a decent score on the NRA candidate profiles, once in office went along with both Clinton and Obama's efforts to ban just about anything they could get away with (pistol grip scary looking stocks, hi-cap mags, semi-autos, lead ammo, etc...) and pushed a new list of restrictive requirements (smart guns, ITAR registration, background check to purchase ammo., stricter ATF regulation of dealers, etc...). None appear to have had the spine to stand up the the D party leadership's whip... but now their in office and we're all stuck with them.

The D party is no longer liberal (in the classical sense of the word) but leftist, and leftist are all about state control of everything and in order to pull that off they must disarm the public. So the NRA (again IMO, I'm not their spokesman) went all in with the Rs, in opposition to the Ds.

As far as the SRA, as long as they stay true 2A and don't attempt to use their guns to promote leftist views onto their fellow citizens by force or cohesion, more power to them.
 
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Armed groups that are not part of the National Guard. Members of National Guard are well-regulated authorized militia.

I would agree with this, prior to the national guard being federalized and control stripped from the states (circa WW1). Now the national guard is simply a state branch of the national army, and if the federal government hasn't deployed 75% of the states National Guardsman to the far corners of the earth in advancement of national foreign policy, the governors can send a few trucks in to help fill sand bags.
 
I find most of these threads on politics pointless because it usually ends up with the split over whatever the NRA does or does not do. Like it or not, in this country as far as political influence, the NRA only has its members and means of disseminating information, its PAC funds are laughable in the context of Bloomberg's billions and that is leaving off other sources of funding such as the Joyce Foundation and others. The gun industry total revenues are dwarfed by financial institutions, large retailers, and internet services. What is causing an issue with the NRA is that the U.S. has become increasingly dominated by urban centers and these areas are not gun friendly nor are their residents. Politically, few people in these urban areas are NRA members, and most of their association with firearms is negative. The only way to gain even some traction in these areas is step by step support of new regulations that will cause losses of members who reject each and every step of those new regulations.

The various coalitions of the left leaning interest groups are often financed by the super wealthy and thus these organizations will reflect those preferences the wealthy supporters of the coalition in order to keep the funds flowing even if the rank and file have more mixed opinions. Thus, the constant call to solidarity, punishment and exiles of dissidents, and purity tests, keep the coalition pointed in one direction which is the intention of their funders. Most of these arrangement are hashed out behind closed doors with virtually no rank and file participation nor media coverage. For example, the ACLU has now largely purged any purists in favor of the new coalition positions on the 1st Amendment. NARAL would kick you out as a member if you favored limiting abortion, and so forth.

The right has the opposite problem of too many chiefs and often not enough Indians. Thus, the fights on the right are largely internal on which is the proper doctrine from which policies should flow and the desirability of compromises to achieve objectives. While there are undoubtedly some closed door meetings between the different forces on the Right, the diversity of thought among the right often leads to paralysis because of fights over the content of policies and conflicts with individual coalition members principles. Incrementalism is difficult for the right for a variety of reasons. Thus, the coalitions of the right often are defensive and focused solely on preserving the status quo rather than bringing new policies to fruition. Note the abject failure of the right to push forward a replacement for the PPACA versus the unanimous opposition to it in 2008. The right knows what it is against but not what it is for. Other than National Review and the Weekly Standard which deplatform and denigrate non-approved conservatives, I do not know of the fewer right leaning organizations that conduct purity tests--instead members debate them incessantly.

Last but not least, moderates often reach that stance by mainly just want to avoid or delay conflict either politically and/or socially. It can also happen because a moderate has a series of single issues where they are the dissenter from their normal coalition of the right or left. Thus, they often are the type to say a pox on both houses to try to get more to listen to them and suggest that if we just broaden our coalition by rounding off the hard edges where people disagree (such as allowing AR bans, gun registration, donate to Democrats, etc.) we will end up persuading more people that we are socially and/or politically acceptable--in the "mainstream" if you like.

For example, one such person, pretty prominent in the firearm world, decried how the NRA featured so much country music which this person felt was exclusionary and would hinder attempts to recruit new members. This sort of person never really thought about why country musicians has been more accepting of the NRA's positions rather than rock or rap or what the general preferences of the NRA members lean toward. The long time center of country has been rural areas and suburban areas where rural people moved to get jobs. It is located in Nashville rather than LA or New York. Thus, for historical, commercial, and cultural reasons, country has always had a different flavor than other forms of music. Note that even some big name country musicians (Urban and Hill) have called for new regulations on firearms but are not ostracized.

The truth is that very few rock stars appear openly favorable to firearms rights for whatever reason and rap has often discussed firearms and their usage in the context of not so desirable circumstances for the NRA. While I am sure that out of all the rock, opera, classical music, rap, and other music has some musicians that dare to be openly supportive of the 2A, many would choose to be silent due to it being harmful to advancement in that career. Deplatforming. humiliation, and firing would often result if a person, without being a proven star, would be the cost of such dissent from the group.

I work in such an industry that is avidly anti-firearm and to openly be a member of the NRA would be regarded as similar to admitting being a felon and perhaps a felon would be better tolerated. I can understand then the plea from moderates because they want acceptance from others rather than being ostracized. But, in the long run, I find it better to accept being in a closet until necessary rather than give up principles. When people ask me about what I support politically, I simply reply the rule of law and as a result the Constitution and all of its amendments. You get some funny looks and probably dislike and suspicion by those dedicated to its overthrow but right now few can openly disagree with it.
 
I find most of these threads on politics pointless because it usually ends up with the split over whatever the NRA does or does not do. Like it or not, in this country as far as political influence, the NRA only has its members and means of disseminating information, its PAC funds are laughable in the context of Bloomberg's billions and that is leaving off other sources of funding such as the Joyce Foundation and others. The gun industry total revenues are dwarfed by financial institutions, large retailers, and internet services. What is causing an issue with the NRA is that the U.S. has become increasingly dominated by urban centers and these areas are not gun friendly nor are their residents. Politically, few people in these urban areas are NRA members, and most of their association with firearms is negative. The only way to gain even some traction in these areas is step by step support of new regulations that will cause losses of members who reject each and every step of those new regulations.

The various coalitions of the left leaning interest groups are often financed by the super wealthy and thus these organizations will reflect those preferences the wealthy supporters of the coalition in order to keep the funds flowing even if the rank and file have more mixed opinions. Thus, the constant call to solidarity, punishment and exiles of dissidents, and purity tests, keep the coalition pointed in one direction which is the intention of their funders. Most of these arrangement are hashed out behind closed doors with virtually no rank and file participation nor media coverage. For example, the ACLU has now largely purged any purists in favor of the new coalition positions on the 1st Amendment. NARAL would kick you out as a member if you favored limiting abortion, and so forth.

The right has the opposite problem of too many chiefs and often not enough Indians. Thus, the fights on the right are largely internal on which is the proper doctrine from which policies should flow and the desirability of compromises to achieve objectives. While there are undoubtedly some closed door meetings between the different forces on the Right, the diversity of thought among the right often leads to paralysis because of fights over the content of policies and conflicts with individual coalition members principles. Incrementalism is difficult for the right for a variety of reasons. Thus, the coalitions of the right often are defensive and focused solely on preserving the status quo rather than bringing new policies to fruition. Note the abject failure of the right to push forward a replacement for the PPACA versus the unanimous opposition to it in 2008. The right knows what it is against but not what it is for. Other than National Review and the Weekly Standard which deplatform and denigrate non-approved conservatives, I do not know of the fewer right leaning organizations that conduct purity tests--instead members debate them incessantly.

Last but not least, moderates often reach that stance by mainly just want to avoid or delay conflict either politically and/or socially. It can also happen because a moderate has a series of single issues where they are the dissenter from their normal coalition of the right or left. Thus, they often are the type to say a pox on both houses to try to get more to listen to them and suggest that if we just broaden our coalition by rounding off the hard edges where people disagree (such as allowing AR bans, gun registration, donate to Democrats, etc.) we will end up persuading more people that we are socially and/or politically acceptable--in the "mainstream" if you like.

For example, one such person, pretty prominent in the firearm world, decried how the NRA featured so much country music which this person felt was exclusionary and would hinder attempts to recruit new members. This sort of person never really thought about why country musicians has been more accepting of the NRA's positions rather than rock or rap or what the general preferences of the NRA members lean toward. The long time center of country has been rural areas and suburban areas where rural people moved to get jobs. It is located in Nashville rather than LA or New York. Thus, for historical, commercial, and cultural reasons, country has always had a different flavor than other forms of music. Note that even some big name country musicians (Urban and Hill) have called for new regulations on firearms but are not ostracized.

The truth is that very few rock stars appear openly favorable to firearms rights for whatever reason and rap has often discussed firearms and their usage in the context of not so desirable circumstances for the NRA. While I am sure that out of all the rock, opera, classical music, rap, and other music has some musicians that dare to be openly supportive of the 2A, many would choose to be silent due to it being harmful to advancement in that career. Deplatforming. humiliation, and firing would often result if a person, without being a proven star, would be the cost of such dissent from the group.

I work in such an industry that is avidly anti-firearm and to openly be a member of the NRA would be regarded as similar to admitting being a felon and perhaps a felon would be better tolerated. I can understand then the plea from moderates because they want acceptance from others rather than being ostracized. But, in the long run, I find it better to accept being in a closet until necessary rather than give up principles. When people ask me about what I support politically, I simply reply the rule of law and as a result the Constitution and all of its amendments. You get some funny looks and probably dislike and suspicion by those dedicated to its overthrow but right now few can openly disagree with it.

Just imagine how much more pressure the NRA could exert if more than 5% of all gun owners were members. Imagine if 30% of gun owners were members of the NRA.
 
This changed at some point. I need to find the source, but in the early 90s the NRA gave 1/3 of its political donations to Democrats, 2/3 to Republicans. In 2016, 99% went to Republicans.
While I can't speak to the numbers, donations or the exact when. The Democratic party DNC platform for 2016 had this as their position on guns: “To build on the success of the lifesaving Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, we will expand and strengthen background checks and close dangerous loopholes in our current laws; repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) to revoke the dangerous legal immunity protections gun makers and sellers now enjoy; and keep weapons of war—such as assault weapons and large capacity ammunition magazines (LCAM’s)—off our streets.”
This may be why the NRA has donated more to R than to D in recent times.
 
Maybe we could do it if their message appealed to a broader segment of gun owners.

Not trying to be facetious here but there is a question THR posters that want the NRA to change its policy should ponder.

How much additional regulation are you willing to support to gain that larger membership and how much of the current membership will walk out due to that support?

The easy way to guess what the initial compromise and cost would look like is check the party's platform in 2016

"With 33,000 Americans dying every year, Democrats believe that we must finally take sensible action to address gun violence. While gun ownership is part of the fabric of many communities, too many families in America have suffered from gun violence. We can respect the rights of responsible gun owners while keeping our communities safe. We will expand background checks and close dangerous loopholes in our current laws, hold irresponsible dealers and manufacturers accountable, keep weapons of war—such as assault weapons—off our streets, and ensure guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists, domestic abusers, other violent criminals, and those with severe mental health issues."

At a minimum, this means a new AWB with the contents to be determined, no private sales (the gun show loophole is what it is called) without background checks, restoring the ability to sue firearms companies and retailers by repealing the gun industry's tort protections from unlawful use in current law, use broad limits such as the terrorist watch list, allow arrests and other non-vetted information to be used to deprive ownership (currently forever once on the list), and define mental illness as a disqualifier in background checks broadly such as preventing veterans or social security recipients who have handed their finances to others to manage as disqualified from purchasing firearms. There is little support for Dems in office or the electorate to expand concealed carry across state lines, relaxing the NFA on suppressors, etc. to improve the FOPA to prevent travesties such as NY and NJ putting poor travelers with firearms at risk for arrest, and so on.

California and New York which set the trend for national Democrats has progressively tightened and tightened state regulations again which are then transported across state lines to other places such as Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Illinois, etc. The only pushback, if any, is from the U.S. Courts. I suspect in those few cases, the judges were appointed by Republicans.

The sad truth is that relatively small proportions of Republicans in those states supported the new regulations versus majority support of new restrictions by the Dems and to some extent swing voters. But, in each of those states, the Republicans are not in power and the ratchet has only tightened despite what the NRA did or did not do.

Should the NRA have supported these new regulations or tried to negotiate from a position of weakness as the Dems had the votes to get the new laws with or without NRA support? And would that have given the green light for Republicans in other states to surrender on similar legislation because they could cite NRA approval for this.

Would shelling out the whole ILA warchest to support Dems that might not seek even harsher legislation in those states work?

The media has largely shut the NRA out and demonized the organization to such an extent that the only free press the NRA gets is bad. Education shuns the NRA's demonstrated Eddie Eagle program to prevent firearm fatalities. Banks, insurance companies, and retailers vie with each other to heap scorn on the NRA and by extension its members as either fools or madmen.

So, in the interest of promoting dialogue, it is time for specifics from posters that want the NRA to change its current policies on lobbying and political support or how to get new members etc.

How do you propose to do that, what will be the costs legislatively, monetarily, and politically (and there aint no such thing as a free lunch)? How important do you consider allowing further 2A regulation versus other priorities that matter to you such as perhaps free higher education, affirmative action, taxes, health care, more K12 educational spending, more immigration, etc. ?

And, how exactly do one propose for the NRA to win over current 2A hostile Democratic officeholders, party financiers, and primary voters?

Right now we appear to be mice that agree that bi-partisan support for firearm ownership and rights is the desired outcome but who is going the bell the cat?
 
To which gun owners do they NOT appeal? Gun owners eager to give up somebody else's guns? Gun "owners" who held onto their AHSA membership cards?
Gun owners like me. I am a member of the NRA but really feel like I need to shower every time I renew or extend membership. On of the local ranges though requires their members to be NRA members in order to use the facilities which actually are fairly nice.

But I struggle with the fact of my membership, find their advertisements fallacious, dislike many of their positions and may well not renew next time. As one example, even though I consider myself a Conservative I would admit the I also find almost all of the current Republican positions similarly flawed.

I am not eager to give up someone else's guns but also believe we need to actually have a dialog nationally about firearms, violence in general and how to address the current issues right here in River City.
 
Gun owners like me. I am a member of the NRA but really feel like I need to shower every time I renew or extend membership. On of the local ranges though requires their members to be NRA members in order to use the facilities which actually are fairly nice.

But I struggle with the fact of my membership, find their advertisements fallacious, dislike many of their positions and may well not renew next time. As one example, even though I consider myself a Conservative I would admit the I also find almost all of the current Republican positions similarly flawed.

I am not eager to give up someone else's guns but also believe we need to actually have a dialog nationally about firearms, violence in general and how to address the current issues right here in River City.

I joined for 10 years when they had special going. I said no to gift and no to magazine subscription. I rarely get mail from them now which is great.
 
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