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NYC Police seem to shoot the guy w/ the gun

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by steelerdude99, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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  2. hermannr

    hermannr Member

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    NYC is a dangerous place, if the muggers don't get you, they cops will. I think NYPD need to review it's policies and procedures, especially with respect to the use of deadly force.

    I think one of the problems here is the police assume if someone has a gun it has to be a criminal. The second big problem is there are no negative consequences when the police shoot an innocent so there is no reason to be careful before shooting someone.

    Goes back to the mental attitude of the cop in California "I'm a cop and I can do whatever I want..." as he pulls out a gun and shoots someone over a dart game insult.
     
  3. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    Actually, NYC has a lower violent crime rate than St Paul or Anchorage. The NYC rate is between those of Louisville and Fort Worth and is just north of places like Denver, Portland (OR) and Seattle (see citation below). What is does have, though, is the largest population of any city in the country and an absolutely huge police force. I suspect what we are seeing is a product of the sheer numbers of cops in that city.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
     
  4. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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    Shear_stress,
    Thanks for the link. It just seems like there is a failure to consider that the person with the gun is in the right. If conceal carry were introduced in NYC, it would lead to the death of citizens who defends themselves. Sort of like the NFL where the initial aggression goes unnoticed by the refs, but the retaliation is flagged.

    chuck
     
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Most unfortunately, you're right, hermannr: virtually the only people the city of New York allows to keep and bear arms are cops and criminals.

    You couldn't pay me to go there.
     
  6. hermannr

    hermannr Member

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    I have heard that one of the reaseons that the FBI does not like these rankings is because not all of the reporting cities call the same thing "murder and no-negligent homocide".

    An example might be the last two LEO's that were shot by LEO's...I will bet you $$$ that those two do not show up on NYC "murders" list, where they might in some other locality.
     
  7. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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  8. Sebastian the Ibis
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    Sebastian the Ibis Member

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  9. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Member

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    I noticed a story in the news last week stating that more cops were shot and killed last year. (trolling for anti-gunner support I guess)
    What it neglected to state is how many were shot by their follow officers.

    Washington Times story link
     
  10. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    In a situation like that, holding up a piece of tin foil and yelling something like "POLICE" might be better than getting shot. Sure, I may not BE a policeman, and I might get arrested later for impersonating one, but it would be better than being shot by the NYPD by accident. I will never BE in NY pulling my pistol, so I don't really know what I would do. Just saying, it might be better than being shot.
     
  11. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    What it neglected to state is how many were shot by their follow officers.



    how many was that?
     
  12. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    I don't see any evidence that the NYC rate is any more fixed than other metro areas jockeying for a favorable slot in the crime rankings. That's why the comparative value of these stats is more important than the absolute value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  13. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    Every year, NYPD compiles a very comprehensive report on use of force by officers that year. For the size of the city and department, the numbers are amazingly low and the effectiveness of the officers high- there are very few instances of spray and pray, despite a few highly publicized cases- some of which occurred years ago.

    2010 NYPD Firearm Discharge Report
     
  14. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    Many off-duty LEO's also fail to identify themselves to responding officers and/or ignore orders to drop their weapon. Many possibly believe, "What? They can't be talking to me!" and then end up getting shot.

    I'm a LEO and a firearms instructor and every year during qualifications I go over off-duty carry. How to act, what to expect, etc. I also include many articles I gather over the year of OIS's.
     
  15. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Read the responses to this thread, got angry, got over it, and decided to speak up. I'm glad my law enforcement years weren't in New York since the more people you have in a given area.... the more trouble, period. I've been in more than my share of violent incidents down here in south Florida, made it through them and have been "retired" now for more than 15 years (and in another line of work entirely - "retirement" isn't good for you...).

    Now for a bit of reality.... nothing you see on television or the movies will ever prepare you for what happens on the street where you never know the whole story and can be confronted with a life or death, shoot-don't shoot situation when you least expect it or are prepared for it. My mantra whenever going to that kind of situation was "look out for the cops" and I meant it in every sense of the words, driving, running, climbing, etc. Every department trains to prevent fratricide (shooting at the good guys.... or being shot at by the good guys). In recent years the military has found that as they're better able to tell where the rounds came from and I.D. the munitions themselves pretty accurately that they're own fratricide rates are a lot higher than you'd guess. In short when you're scared to death, and at an extreme level of adrenaline, acting in a safe and prudent manner is much more difficult (and it isn't some game where you can re-set and try it again...).

    For that reason sharp, well trained outfits have policies in place to reduce the chances of one cop shooting at another... In my outfit's case we actually required plainclothes types to put on a lightweight windbreaker with large "POLICE" markings if they were going to help out on an active weapons scene. As a watch commander I ordered plainclothes guys out of an area where we had an active shooter on more than one occasion. Even so you can still have "circular firing" or cross-fire incidents where one or more of the good guys wind up in the E.R. with wounds received that were intended for the same guy they were shooting at... Things become much, much more complicated when you have multiple agencies and jursidictions on the same scene. In those situations the chances of something very bad happening go way, way up. Yes, in my early years (hired at the end of 1973) I participated in chase scenes that looked like something from that movie the "Blues Brothers". And yes, I've been in situations where fire discipline, and every other basic procedure just went out the window and you ended up making your own decisions (for better or worse).

    Down here in Florida we've had a history of bad guys trying to impersonate officers (particularly when robbing dopers) so a police uniform (or what passes for one on a drug raid) is no guarantee that you're actually seeing a real cop (and my own SRT did shoot several of these kind of guys and they were wearing armor, and police T-shirts, and had badges...).

    Now for the portion of the previous replies that did get me fired up. The consequences for any officer that's involved in a shooting that is even the slightest bit controversial are very, very serious. Before any decision is made about whether the incident is going to prosecuted, the Department begins it's initial investigation of any shooting incident. Once the basics are determined (and before the officer involved is asked for a statement) a state attorney is briefed and that individual (after talking to their brass) will decide if this is possibly going to be prosecuted... If the State Attorney's office takes over all Department actions cease (for the time being) and the officer is read his rights and things move forward. In many cases this means that the SA after a thorough investigation goes to the Grand Jury with the case. That body will indict or "no bill" the incident. With an indictment the officer is treated like any other defendant by the system but everything surrounding it turns into a circus.... If there's no indictment the matter returns to the agency and then it's just an administrative matter. That means that the only thing on the line for the officer is his/her job (but with very serious consequences still to come). If any rules, regulations, policies were broken then discipline will result - all the way up to firing - but with one added feature. Now for the fun part, at that point the officer is ordered to give a full account of the incident. That statement will become a permanent part of the file and will be the basis of any interrogation by Internal Affairs if necessary (and I actually did that job for three years...). If the outfit determines that what happened violated basic procedures they can use that to decline to defend the officer in any subsequent civil case..... and that means real trouble for whoever is involved... In most cases the City will have to defend the officer since it's their money at stake (and that leads to all sorts of complcations and conflicts of interest...).

    "No consequences for the officer" ? What a load of bad information. Yes, there are miscarriages of justice and yes there are incidents that cry out for change but the consequences for any officer involved in a shooting are as heavy as they get, the process from start to finish takes months (at times years) and can be very, very damaging to anyone involved. Police outfits do their best to find good people for the job, then the job and the world you operate in does its best to grind them down to the point of indifference (at best). Very, very few cops come through a shooting situation without serious psych problems afterwards. I was one of them, but was lucky enough to sort it all out in just a few years...
     
  16. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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    Steve in PA,
    Thanks for your response. It clears up a few things as you seem to be know many of the issues and solutions of police arriving at a shooting where there is a man with gun in hand.

    chuck
     
  17. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Deleted my rant.

    I think civilians are always going to criticize the decisions LEOs make in certain situations. Evidently, the facts are irrelevant. In this case, the facts are:

    1) If you weren't there, it's impossible for you to know what the right or wrong decision was in a deadly situation, at any given moment.
    2) You either are an LEO, or you're not an LEO. If you're not, you have no business chiming in on how an LEO should handle a potentially deadly situation (or just about any other); and if you are an LEO, you shouldn't be doing it here, anyway.
    3) It's easy to criticize a decision someone made in the heat of the moment, when you're sitting at your desk, and you're not trying to protect anyone's life - even if it's only your life.

    Am I saying cops shouldn't have their actions questioned? No. I'm saying they should be questioned by someone qualified to be doing so. Very few civilians fit that basic criteria.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  18. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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    It was more like "when arriving at a shooting, why shoot without understanding the situation?" An un-uniformed officer just fired and someone is lying on the ground. He is still holding his weapon. The next few seconds are critical to everyone's safety. Where is the break down? Did the shooter just block everything out and not listen to commands to drop the weapon? Did uniformed police just shoot without commanding him to drop the weapon? A similar situation can happen to anyone who carries.

    Chuck
     
  19. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    What makes you think you know the answers to those questions? What about all the other questions you haven't even considered?
     
  20. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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    Bobson,
    I do not claim to know. I am asking to see what others think.

    chuck
     
  21. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    IMO, if used along the lines of, "This is what I perceive to be true about this situation, and this is how I would have handled it if I were involved," addressing these situations could be a good thing to do.

    However, even that may be dangerous. There are very few situations, if any, that civilians should handle the same way LEOs should. The only thing left then, is to look at this situation and critique the decision made by the LEO. Even if he did make a serious mistake, it does nobody any good to reach that conclusion here, on THR.

    My point is, this type of thread has just about no business being discussed here, as there is virtually no positive purpose for doing so.

    The only thing for THR members in general to learn from this, is to be careful when using your weapon to stop crimes in progress, because you may be mistaken for a criminal. Whether it's right or wrong, it's not entirely uncommon for officers "shoot first, and ask questions second." Whether it's right or wrong is irrelevant in this setting.

    Nothing of further value can be gained from this thread. Opinions, on the other hand, will surely flourish.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  22. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Member

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    Thought:
    Wondering if ... after firing at a bad guy (without ear protection) , adrenaline pumping,... could you even HEAR a responding officer's demand to drop the weapon?......

    Just saying..........

    HowtheheckshouldIknow? [​IMG]

    .... If you read the linked story, it didn't give that info.
    That was the point.
     
  23. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    "Only cops and criminals have guns in NYC."
    Not possible!
    Everyone knows only cops have guns in NYC due to the effective efforts of the Bloomberg gun ban!:rolleyes:
    That and too many undercover and off duty cops roaming around.
    This seems to be the reason so many cops are shooting other cops.

    Condolences to the family of the slain officer.:(
     
  24. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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  25. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    LOL so now we aren't qualified to question the actions of the police??? A plain clothes cop was shot by a uniformed cop doesn't take an expert to see someone screwed up.
     
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