NYPD brass to cops: Stop using Kahr K-9 semi-automatic pistol as an off-duty gun

[balance 740]

NYC has how many people now normally? 7-9 million people depending on the time of day?

I'd assume they have a higher number of police as well.

So a dozen NDs in a period of a few years in NYC, is probably a lot lower of a percentage of NDs, than the same number in your home towns that may have less than a hundred thousand residents.

NYC is one of the biggest cities in the world...

with the most people...

with (I assume) the most police.

And FWIW, I wouldn't blame the pistols either.

 

[NOLAEMT]

Since the NYC police department can't simply fire everyone that has an ND and erase their pension, .

why not?

I bet that would have a significant effect on the amount of ND in the department. In other jobs, if you have problems with basic safety instructions you find yourself unemployed in short order, why not in the NYPD?

 

[hardluk1]

buck kramer Kahrs 6.5lb trigger as advitized but a bit more or less newis pretty standard. After some use they do tend to settle around 6 to 6.4lbs but so smooth them Ny cop would pull though that and never know it.

Wonder what would happen if you put all the ny officers and put them in side yankee stadium with standard glock pistol with 5.5lb triggers and told them to just hold try pistols. NO holsters. Would they all end up shooting each other.

 

[GLOOB]

if you have problems with basic safety instructions you find yourself unemployed in short order, why not in the NYPD?

Because it would be too darn expensive. In most government jobs, you get a pension which is based on number of years you worked. It takes an awful lot of screw up to warrant your replacement. Now they're paying you to do nothing, and paying your old salary to a new guy. This doesn't even include the cost of training someone else who is just as likely to have 3 thumbs. Afterall, like someone already ponted out, 12 incidents over a few years isn't all that much to begin with.

Just treat everyone like they have 3 thumbs, and it will reduce your number of incidents. Sounds dumb? Yeah, but you're not the one paying for the mistakes.

When John Smith carries w/e the heck he wants, he's the only one that the lawyers can come after when he makes a mistake. A police officer incident opens up the taxpayers to attack.

 

[JohnBT]

There are around 35,000 NYC police officers and another 4,000 NYC transit police.

A dozen incidents over a number of years is nothing too meaningful.

 

[2WheelsGood]

There are around 35,000 NYC police officers and another 4,000 NYC transit police.

A dozen incidents over a number of years is nothing too meaningful.

First, we're only talking about ND's from Kahrs. Who knows how many including all brands. Second, it sure as heck is meaningful. They should have zero!

 

[GLOOB]

I agree, but as long as the department implements stupid precautions against ND's, they can make sure the blame is more likely to stick only on the individual officer, rather than anything to do with the department policies. When one of those 4 incidents a year finally results in a wrongful death, this will suddenly matter.

 

[Vonderek]

They are having a rash of accidental discharges when their officers are "pulling the triggers"? The obvious solution is to remove the triggers.

 

[NoAlibi]

"They are having a rash of accidental discharges when their officers are "pulling the triggers"? The obvious solution is to remove the triggers."

Install foot pedals instead?

 

[Bobson]

NYC has how many people now normally? 7-9 million people depending on the time of day?

I'd assume they have a higher number of police as well.

They do. NYPD is the largest city police department in the U.S, at roughly 35,000 sworn officers.

That may not seem like many compared to the number of civilians in the city, but that's an enormous department. To contrast, LAPD has around 9,000 sworn officers, IIRC.

Edit: Whoops. JohnBT already mentioned this.

 

[hammerklavier]

I'll bet what's happening is the NYC cops have become used to staging their triggers (even when just handling a gun) due to the high draw weight -- unintended consequinces.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

The NYPD has instructed cops to stop carrying an off-duty gun that has a trigger so light it’s been blamed for a series of accidental discharges, the Daily News has learned.

wonder how accurate that reason is......

 

[aliveisalive]

First handgun I ever shot was an ex NYPD g19... I didnt know much about handguns at all, and it almost turned me off from pistol shooting completely. The triggers are THAT heavy -_-

 

[mortablunt]

And how much are triggers on things like Taurus or other such double action systems? 6 pounds, right? How can they expect somebody to be able to work 13 pounds in a firefight; I've never even used a gun that heavy.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Whats the actual trigger pull on the Kahr?

About 6-7 lbs. of pressure, and moreover, over nearly a 3/4- inch stroke. This is why I don't buy any of this business.

 

[doolan41]

Have the original K9, CW45 and the CM9. All triggers are not single action, but smooooth and IMO great. I think as previously posted, they're staging their triggers. I know...I do it myself!

 

[Plan2Live]

Lots of questions here! With New York being Big Union territory, are the cops even allowed to pull the triggers themselves? They don't have a seperate union shop for that? When it happens, do they have to pay a weapon discharge tax to the City, Burrough and State? Do they have to pay a higher tax if they discharge prior to getting the appropriate accidental discharge permit? Does Hazmat have to come in and locate and remove all traces of fulmanated mercury and lead? Do the Occupy crowd protest that the cops represent the 1% allowed to have weapons in NYC?

 

[sugarmaker]

As a childhood instructor told me:

Keep your booger hook off the baminator until you're ready to shoot!

 

[oneounceload]

A dozen ADs over several years with a force of almost 35,000 - those aren't high % instances

 

[Drail]

They have been blaming NDs on their guns for many many years now. It's New York. Percentages don't count when we're talking about NDs. 1% is unacceptable. But that firearms training is just SO EXPENSIVE! They just can't justify the expense in their budget. And who has time to go to classes? It's cheaper to just pay off the lawsuits and blame the gun's manufacturer.

 

[Old Fuff]

A dozen ADs over several years with a force of almost 35,000 - those aren't high % instances

No it isn't, but the point is that rather then take responsibility for the inept, negligent, careless performance of they're officers they blame the weapon - that functioned exactly as it was suppose to.

Through no blame on they're part, Kahr will lose a lot of business that the NYCP represented, and other sales that are influenced by that department.

Kahr may face unrelated lawsuits, brought by lawyers using the "New York experience," to bolster claims that Kahr products are unsafe because of unintended shots fired when unsafe trigger pulls are too light.

Put bluntly, this action by the police department is absolutely reprehensible, but not unexpected.

 

[balance 740]

But do they have a higher number of NDs because they lack proper training compared to others, or is it just that they have so many police?

Does anyone have some statistics of the actual number of NDs for all weapons in the hands of the NYPD? And can we compare that percentage to the percentage of NDs from another smaller PD that presumably has less police?

If department A has 1000 officers, and 10 NDs a year...

And department B has 10,000 officers and 100 NDs a year...

I'd say they were equally trained.

 

[balance 740]

And I agree that the weapons are not to blame, I'm just challenging the claims about the lack of trigger discipline of the NYPD...

...compared to others.

 

[Drail]

Having spent years as an NRA instructor and being on ranges watching LEO qualifications I can assure you the training is the problem. Constant muzzle sweeping ("it's not loaded") fingers on triggers while walking around behind the line, and general unsafe handling was the order of the day any time the LEOs showed up at out range. We would just step back and let them have the whole range and watch. It's not their fault, administrators do not think the expense of training and ammo serves any purpose. After all, they're experts, right? Blame it on City Hall. It's been this way for many many years folks.

 

[larryh1108]

If you're used to shooting a 12#-14# pull and you pick up a smooth 6# or 7# pull I bet you it feels like 2#. That can explain a lot of NDs, IMO. Poor excuse because the finger should not be on the trigger whether it is 2#, 66# or 16# unless you mean to shoot it.