Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Obama on pitbulls...analogy time

Discussion in 'Activism' started by Mitlov, Aug 22, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    President Obama has just publicly condemned state and local laws restricting or banning pitbulls, stating:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/obama-breed-specific-legislation_n_3785911.html

    Probably worth bringing up if you find yourself in a debate with someone who seems to agree with Obama on everything.
     
  2. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    In this case, he's absolutely correct.

    About any dog can be aggressive if it's taught to be. Pitbulls are just dogs. They're pretty much what you make'em.

    And laws don't stop people from obtaining whatever they want, from dogs to guns to illegal drugs.
     
  3. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,607
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    "We don't support firearm-specific legislation -- research shows that bans on certain types of firearms are largely ineffective and often a waste of public resources...The CDC also noted that the types of people who look to exploit firearms aren't deterred by gun control regulations -- when their communities establish a ban, these people just seek out new, unregulated firearms. And the simple fact is that guns of any type can become dangerous when they're intentionally or unintentionally used to for harm."

    I'd be careful with the last sentence since guns aren't "aggressive" or dangerous on their own. I'd point out that unlike a dog that can act on its own a firearm is incapable of doing anything. A person picks it up and uses it for ill or good just as any tool is used.
     
  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Neither are dogs unless they've either been taught to be...or are suffering with pain or illness...or they're in fear for one reason or another. Most people who are bitten bring it on themselves, whether they realize it or not. Most dog bites are fear-based.
     
  5. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,298
    Location:
    'MURICA!
    Anyone else see the irony? Of course dogs are less of a threat to the regime than guns.
     
  6. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Exactly. Barack Hussein Obama alluding to the fact that bans don't work is off the scale ironic.
     
  7. vamo

    vamo Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    737
    Location:
    Missouri
    Pitbull = assault rilfe of dogs. Poorly defined under the law and no rationale reason to consider them more dangerous than other large dogs.

    Don't believe google an assault rifle or pitbull ban debate, and replace pitbull with assault rifle or vice versa, its basically the same argument.
     
  8. RustHunter87

    RustHunter87 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    379
    Location:
    MAINE
    I'd bet pit bulls cause more damage here in the states than "assault rifles"
     
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    I definitely posted this because of the irony factor. Substitute a couple words and this is what second amendment supporters have been saying all along! Gun bans don't work, and any sort of gun can be used for murder by someone who wants to commit murder. Just like dogfighters could use Rhodesian ridgebacks or mastiffs or German shepherds, just as much as pitbulls, a mass-murderer not confronted by a good guy with a gun could cause terrible devastation with a pump-action shotgun and a belt full of twelve-gauge buckshot, a backpack full of J-frames and speedloaders, etc.

    But that's irony that can be used in activism. Ask a gun ban supporter if they know Obama's stance on pitbulls. Walk them through his reasoning. Get them to support each logical stepping stone. Then switch three words and make it about AR-15 bans and ask why the same reasoning no longer applies.
     
  10. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,093
    Location:
    Tidewater
    But the irony--no, hypocrisy--of such a statement will be lost on Obama supporters and most of the media. It'll be a non-story.
     
  11. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Sometimes I wonder if this man even listens to his own chin music.
     
  12. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    6,919
    Location:
    East TN
    Right, bans do not work but folks will not learn from Prohibition or the "War on drugs".
     
  13. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    45,596
    Location:
    Alabama
    Ironic. Too bad he doesn't feel that way about firearms. Wonder why? :rolleyes:
     
  14. sixgunner455

    sixgunner455 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Power, of course. It's not gun control, it's people control.
     
  15. LeonCarr

    LeonCarr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,817
    Location:
    At The Range
    I would like to see some stats on number of people injured or killed by firearms compared to number of people injured or killed by dogs.

    The meanest dog I have ever seen is a Pit Bull, and the friendliest dog I have ever seen is a Pit Bull. IME/IMO the temperament of a dog is directly related to how he/she is treated by the owner.

    Just my .02,
    LeonCarr
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,607
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Guys,

    Let's not drift into a dog discussion.

    Stay focused on the OP's plan and help to distribute it or make suggestions on how to enhance it or this will turn into a dog topic instead of 2A.
     
  17. improperlyaged

    improperlyaged Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Messages:
    411
    Has anyone noticed the comments on that page? No mention of gun control whatsoever and almost everyone supports Obama in this. I bet they also supported Obama on gun control
     
  18. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,607
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Folks,

    Once again, and for the final time, we need to focus on what to do with this opportunity to turn this to a 2A purpose.

    Rants about President Obama, love or fear of dogs, or any other drift simply aren't useful.

    We have a gift on a platter given to us in the statement made by POTUS and we need to put it to use.

    Some have pointed out the irony of the President of the United States getting involved in a discussion of laws concerning certain breeds of dogs in the midst of the controversies and problems in this country. The "wasting time" aspect doesn't tie directly to the 2A defense, but it can be useful.

    Others have pointed out the irony of POTUS making our case for the 2A supporter by analogy. Public perception, the abuse of something powerful by a very few and the fear it produces are analogous to the firearms debate. A very few misuse firearms to commit crimes and abuse their power, but the public perception is manipulated to create a greater public impression of risk than statistics and facts show exists. So how do we use this?

    We don't turn it against President Obama right away in one on one discussions where we're trying to show someone that's been brainwashed by a biassed media. The best thing is to point out that POTUS has come to the defense of these breeds and to point out the parallels between the arguments. If the person tries to claim one is not like the other it becomes our responsibility to provide the facts about firearms and violence and point out that the entertainment industry and news media aren't interested in showing boring safe situations since their goal is to quicken the pace and ramp up the adrenaline and capture the attention with tales of horror whether it is an American Pit or a pistol. We have to know that the violent crime and firearms deaths have been dropping since the drug war fueled 80's (yes, I know that there are other socioeconomic factors that drove the violent crime rate to an all time high in that decade) so that the risk of a violent crime is lower than it has been in a generation. We need to point out that more people own the firearms the Antis are fearmongering about in contrast to this low violent crime rate. We need to point out that people have begun to fight back against the prejudice and lies about firearms and these breeds because the truth is that only a very few abuse either and that much more good is done because of them than any harm.
     
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Spinnin' wheels.

    The pro side already gets it. The anti side either won't get it...or they'll ignore it, avowing that it has nothing to do with the issue. Most of them probably have good intentions, and truly believe that banning guns will solve all the problems. The ones that have a darker agenda aren't concerned with crime or gun violence victims in the least...and very likely would love to see more of the same because it garners public support for their goals.

    Look at how quickly they jumped on the recent mass killings. The blood wasn't even dry before they were dancing in it.

    This is what we're up against, and a contradictory statement by his grace ain't gonna mean a thing until he says that a gun ban won't solve the violence problem...and you can try holdin' your breath 'til that happens.
     
  20. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,607
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Surrendering the greater middle ground of uncommitted and fence sitters because the two ends of the argument can't be swayed doesn't get us anywhere. Those people that are open to persuasion are where we can make gains as opposed to the committed antis who are invested in destroying the 2A. Giving up the culture struggle assures us of losing.
     
  21. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Messages:
    500
    HSO,

    Thanks for your last two posts. Agreed, I only posted this because of the gun control analogy. I don't want to debate dog breeds or open up a "I hate Obama more than you" competition.

    To the person who said debating with antis is pointless, no. Debating with the likes of Nancy Pelosi is pointless, but debating with friends and coworkers in a polite-and-reasoned manner has changed a least a couple people's minds in my personal experience. If you assume that nobody who disagrees with you would ever change their mind, you will debate/argue the issue in such a way to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.
     
  22. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    You're not going to win a debate with them, any more than they can win a debate with us. Even the fence-sitters have shown to be "okay" with hunting and target shooting and not much else.

    And we're not going to out vote them. They're too many...which brings us to the subject that shouldn't be discussed.

    The politicians don't care what we want. They don't care that we know that they lie and do the opposite of what they promise. They do as they please...and it's not a matter of R vs D or L vs C. They're two sides of the same coin.

    We can't win it by voting. Voting got us into this mess to start with. We're going to have to make some hard choices soon...much sooner than I anticipated. I didn't think that I'd see it in my lifetime, but now I'm thinking that I was overly optimistic.

    They've gotten bold and impatient. They mean to govern.

    When the call goes out...will you comply with registration? When the whistle sounds...will you turn them in?

    Not defeatist at all, HSO. Just realistic. Coming events cast their shadows before them...and the shadows are already on the wall.
     
  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,607
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Tuner this isn't the forum for negativity. The very reason for it to exist is in the belief that action can be taken that is beneficial.

    That's written into the description of the purpose of the forum and into the scope for us.

    When we give up we have no reason to participate.
     
  24. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,836
    Location:
    Ava, Missouri
    Come to my house, but bring a towel. You'll need it. My Pit Bull will LICK you to death. Pit Bulls are not mean. They are trained or made to be mean. I've had several Pit Bulls over the years and NONE of them have been mean. In fact they LOVE two legged critters. Watch out for unbobbed tails though. They are like a bull whip.
     
  25. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,328
    Location:
    Central Arkansas
    Almost as ironic as a man with a Nobel Peace Prize trying to launch us into World War 3.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page