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Odd .45ACP

Discussion in 'Firearms Research' started by hso, Jul 31, 2020.

  1. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    What would milsurp .45ACP with "Rifle Only" on the box be for?

    20200731_161955.jpg
     
  2. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    For Thompson and M3 SMGs?

    There was a brief interwar experiment with rechambering low-number Springfields for .45acp, but I dont think it ever got to the point of developing special ammo for it.
     
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  3. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Ooooo...maybe subsonic for the British Delisle suppressed carbines?
     
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  4. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    They're all subsonic.

    Cupronickel jacket, that is either very old or very odd.
     
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  5. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    Yep. You're not going to find a 230 ball 45 ACP that's not subsonic. People throw that word around and have NO IDEA what it really means.

    Last year I noticed a box of Remington 230 Subsonic ball ammo on the shelf. The price was just under $40 for 50 rounds. Right next to it was the standard green and yellow box of Remington 230 ball, price was $19.99.

    The velocity of the two rounds was identical. That's some damn smart marketing right there. Charge the ignorant 2x the price.
     
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  6. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    From a pistol barrel, sure. Perhaps you can push one faster than 1150fps out of a modified Springfield or Enfield, maybe not......I dunno.

    Ok, so any ideas on the OPs original question?
     
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  7. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    What is the headstamp?
     
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  8. rdnktrkr

    rdnktrkr Member

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    I have a few boxes that looks like those but marked "match" from 67 and 68 and ammo boxes full of 230 ball, but I've never seen any marked "rifle".
     
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  9. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Semi auto reising SMG issued to plant guards was my guess. But the boxes look pristine for ww2 issue.
     
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  10. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    My agency was using those - and Thompsons - up into the 1980s. Also Winchester pump shotguns and lever action rifles.
    Til they decided to modernize and traded everything in on 870s and Ruger AC556.
     
  11. JT-AR-MG42

    JT-AR-MG42 Member

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    'Till we hear about the headstamp?

    Observations.
    The top left box - I do not recall seeing authentic G.I. ball packaging without a lot number (following the W.C.C. designation) before,
    and all but one of the other boxes have been re-assembled incorrectly with the interlocking flaps on the outside,
    so is it factory ammo, re-packaged foreign, or reloads?

    JT
     
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  12. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    It really looks like a lead bullet to me.

    I know I've seen those cardboard boxes for sale. Newly made.
     
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  13. Old Shooter

    Old Shooter Member

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    My bet is on reloads in newly made boxes.
     
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  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Boxes look/feel/smell old.

    upload_2020-8-1_12-39-40.png
     
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  15. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    Mixed headstamps. Those are reloads.

    Actual military ammo would all be the same headstamp.

    Take a knife and see if you can scratch a line in those bullets. The pictures make it look like there are mold lines on them.
     
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  16. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Mixed brass, reloads and what I thought was cupronickel is just clean lead.
    Still doesn't explain the "rifle only" label but we will probably never know.
     
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  17. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    After raking through my references, there was some Alternate Standard and Substitute Standard powders pressed into use in 1942 is the rushed build up during that year.

    Now, most of that was rifle powder, and into M2 Ball (some was directed to training and gallery loads). But, since the powder could not be guaranteed to be 100% reliable to military performance, it was labeled for rifle use only, to divert it from being used as MG ammo, where performance was to a much higher standard (and the Browning MGs were sensitive to headspace issues).

    As a guess, a "rifle only" label was stuck on a pistol ammo box. Whether that was an uninformed guess from finding the label on the floor or a wag looking to stickyfinger some pistol ammo is speculation at this point. Or, if a person with a butt-ton of boxes just had a spare label to hand 50 or 60 years ago is also just speculation.
     
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  18. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    There are.

    I also posted on a cartridge collecting site and they're as confused as anyone. The consensus there is reloads.
     
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  19. entropy

    entropy Member

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    I concur. Mixed headstamps and lead screams reloads.
     
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  20. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Ice seen a bunch of ww2 era ammo that was steel cased, none of the issue stuff I've seen was lead.
     
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  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Reloads and the loader had a printer and some labels, no telling what that meant to him/her.
     
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  22. entropy

    entropy Member

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    And that's a good point to insert a word of caution. They might have been made for a PCC, and could be loaded hotter. My Dad loaded for his .44 Mag. Ruger Carbine (sort of a 10/22 on steroids), and had some rounds left over after he sold it. I shot them up in my Redhawk, had to shorten them by removing the exposed lead (they were JFP) to get them in the cylinder. It digested them with nary a burp, but a lesser gun might have been shook up.
    It is possible to double charge a .45 ACP with some powders, or load them up hotter for a carbine. Gets one thinking that taking them down and reusing the components might not be a bad idea.
     
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  23. mokin

    mokin Member

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    Interesting for sure. Lots of good speculation here.
     
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  24. jaguarxk120

    jaguarxk120 Member

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    Chances are the bullet is a Lyman 452374 round nose 230 grain.
     
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  25. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    According to BBTI, even with 18" barrels you are not going super sonic with 230gr standard pressure loads.

    RA (first closeup picture) is a common headstamp for Remington ammo in Bridgeport, CT. The numbers should indicate year 56=1956.

    https://www.cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes?page=headstampcodes#R
     
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