Officer shoots 16 year old boy twice

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TheeBadOne

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Baltimore Officer Attacked During Struggle With Suspect

BALTIMORE -- A teenager was shot twice Thursday after cutting an officer with a knife, police said.

The shooting occurred about 5:25 a.m. after the officer responded to a vandalism report. The unidentified teenager, who was shot in the chest and arm, was taken to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center, where he was listed in good condition, police said.

The 27-year-old officer, who also was not immediately identified, was taken to the Wilmer Eye Institute at Johns Hopkins Hospital for treatment of a cut near the right eye.

Charges were pending against the 16-year-old who was shot, police said.

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2712969/detail.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Goes to show you never know who's going to try to hurt you, even for a minor offense! (and afirms that teens may be the most dangerous, as they don't think before they act) :eek:
 
16 yr olds who commit crimes and attack LEO's are not 'boys'.
they are vermin that need to be exterminated.
 
I'm glad the officer survived, too bad the kid did. I'm all for police restraint and making sure of the situation before acting, but once attacked the cop shouldn't have stopped until his gun was empty!
 
I think the officers of the Baltimore police department need more effective ammo.

A hit in the chest is supposed to STOP a bad guy for good!

I would recommend a super fast .40 S&W load with a 135grs Sierra JHP.
 
A teenager was shot twice Thursday after cutting an officer with a knife...Goes to show you never know who's going to try to hurt you, even for a minor offense! (and afirms that teens may be the most dangerous,

On October 8, 1995, a 14-year old stabbed two Denver police officers, almost killilng one of them.
 
Hey folks,

Have any of you considered what would have happened if any one of us had been standing in place of the cop and had done the same thing?

I have no idea of the details of the incident because I did not want to bother reading about it. I found the comments in this thread far more interesting.

It would seem everyone who responded thus far has expressed the idea that the cop did the right thing, and the kid should have been killed. OK, I can go along completely with the idea that the cop should have been able to defend himself. My problem is that I think everyone should be able to defend themselves in such circumstances. I suspect if it had been a regular citizen who had done the shooting in this case, that citizen would be in jail and would lose everything he owned in his defense. I am quite certain that it it had been a regular citizen doing this shooting, there would have been all kinds of folks (including cops, district attorneys, and folks on this forum) who would have said the citizen should have tried to get away without using deadly force.

Sorry folks, but I do not think there should be different rules for cops than the rules applied to citizens. I am sorry that other folks on this forum would not also think they deserve as much consideration as cops. I just do not understand how we place cops as well as other groups of people on some elevated level that is better than the common citizen.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile
 
It would seem everyone who responded thus far has expressed the idea that the cop did the right thing, and the kid should have been killed. OK, I can go along completely with the idea that the cop should have been able to defend himself. My problem is that I think everyone should be able to defend themselves in such circumstances. I suspect if it had been a regular citizen who had done the shooting in this case, that citizen would be in jail and would lose everything he owned in his defense. I am quite certain that it it had been a regular citizen doing this shooting, there would have been all kinds of folks (including cops, district attorneys, and folks on this forum) who would have said the citizen should have tried to get away without using deadly force.

Dave makes a good point, which I think explains why a lot of gun owners get upset when police officers use excessive force and are not penalized -- or seemingly not penalized -- for it.

It makes it more frustrating when attempts to explain an officer's actions become an attempt to excuse the officer's actions. This double standard, and not a hatred of police officers nor a desire to "bash" them, results in an "us vs. them" attitude, both among police and non-police here.

UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh posted an example of this on his blog Volokh.com last week:


December 12, 2003 11:09 AM

Arrested for legal self-defense? The Corpus Christi Caller-Times reports:

Police, prosecutors and women's advocates acknowledge that the public might find it strange that Noelle Richardson is facing a murder charge in the shooting death of her estranged husband.

After all, police say he broke down the door the night before she had a court date to seek a restraining order. Records show that he had stalked her and beat her before.

"The cops don't worry about self-defense," First Assistant District Attorney Mark Skurka said Wednesday. "They have to determine if a homicide took place."

Police say Richardson, 22, shot 23-year-old John Washington Richardson on Monday night with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun that police suspect he gave her before the couple separated. Investigators said Richardson shot him in the face after he broke into an apartment on O'Grady Drive, and that when he kept advancing she shot him again in the side. . . .

Police say they didn't have a choice but to arrest Noelle Richardson, despite what appeared to be an attempt to defend herself.

.....

I'm pretty sure that this is wrong. The police can only arrest someone if they have probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed. Homicide in self-defense is not a crime -- not intentional murder, not negligent homicide, and not manslaughter. Unless they have probable cause to think that it wasn't self-defense, which the article does not suggest, then an arrest violates the Fourth Amendment.

Bringing the case before a grand jury, I think, may be a different matter: It's the grand jury's job to determine whether probable cause existed, and it seems to me that a prosecutor may decide that, regardless of his own views, he should leave the question to the grand jury (though I tentatively think that the better course is not to even bring before the grand jury cases that the prosecutor thinks weren't crimes, at least unless he thinks they're very close calls). But an arrest actually requires probable cause to believe a crime, not a perfectly legal act, was committed.

.....


Friday, December 12, 2003 3:30 PM

Probable cause and affirmative defenses: Several readers e-mailed me to suggest that it's OK for the police to arrest someone who clearly killed someone, even if seems very likely that the killing was in self-defense. Self-defense, they argue, is an affirmative defense, which is to say that at trial the defendant has to plead it and introduce some evidence of it. Therefore, the probable cause inquiry should focus only on the case-in-chief, not the affirmative defense.

I don't think that's right. The Fourth Amendment is generally described as forbidding arrests unless there's probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed. If the police officer has probable cause to believe that someone has been killed, but no probable cause to believe that the killing is unlawful, then the Fourth Amendment test isn't satisfied.

I did a quick search to see what the courts have said about this, and found very little. The one case that's squarely on point is on my side, but it's only a federal trial court case, Dietrich v. Burrows, 976 F.Supp. 1099 (N.D.Ohio 1997):

The test for probable cause is not whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person, or one of reasonable caution, in believing, in the circumstances shown, that the suspect is committing an act that would be a criminal offense but for the fact that the actor has a valid affirmative defense. The test is whether the officer is reasonable in believing that the actor is in fact committing a criminal offense. Since the arresting officers had actual knowledge that the Dietrichs had a valid affirmative defense to the crime of carrying concealed weapons, the facts and circumstances did not warrant a belief that the Dietrichs were committing a criminal offense.

So I admit this isn't the strongest precedent -- but I know of no contrary ones, and I think that the case is consistent with how the Fourth Amendment rule is usually described.

This, though, of course also leaves the question whether a reasonable police officer might still have had probable cause to believe the killing was unlawful. Jeff Sterling, for instance, takes this view (as well as the view that the probable cause inquiry shouldn't consider affirmative defenses). But if the press account is correct, then it's hard for me to see this. The woman says the man had broken into her apartment; even if they didn't trust her, there was presumably physical evidence of that. Texas law views self-defense quite broadly. (Just to give an example, it's even generally lawful to use deadly force to prevent someone from imminently damaging your property at night -- something that I believe is generally not lawful in many other states -- if deadly force seems the only realistic means to do so; Texas is pretty hard-core on this stuff.) I would think that, absent some evidence to the contrary, the situation in that case pretty clearly points to self-defense.

Silver writes: "The dead man looks like a bad guy. But is it possible he just went there to talk? Not likely, I'll admit. But it is possible, and if it's true, then the wife ([Battered Woman Syndrome] aside) is a murderer." But the test for probable cause is not mere possibility; it's probable cause. If the police think that it's possible (though not likely) that someone is a criminal, they are free to investigate the person to try to develop probable cause. The Fourth Amendment, however, forbids them from arresting the person based on mere possibility.

UPDATE: Referring to the article mentioned in the original post, reader James Guinivan writes:

So "[p]olice say they didn't have a choice" and "it's up to the district attorney and the grand jury to decide about charges based on whether it's justifiable circumstances"?

I take it from this that if a police officer is attacked by a perp in the course of duty, and shoots the perp dead, then he or she is arrested and thrown in jail by others on the force? After all, they have no choice, right?

If, on the other hand, the police officer is simply put on administrative leave with pay pending investigation (as is done in most other jurisdictions that I'm aware of), then it would appear that the police do "make such decisions in the field" after all.
 
This case (in the original post by TheeBadOne) seems like a justified shooting by the officer in question. Knives are dangerous weapons.

But then again...

I wasn't there, and I'm not supposed to believe media reports about police officers using force. So I should be skeptical about what happened.

Right?
 
I think there is a problem with headline writers. a 16 year old is not a boy. He is a young man. He may be an immature idiot, but no boy. Too bad the little s.o.b. isn't dead.
 
@ Quartus:

Maybe the LEO in that first story had used the wrong ammo.

According to Marshall/Sanow ("Street Stoppers") .45ACP ammo from CCI (with 230 Gold Dot bullets) is rated at 86% OSS (ons shot stops).

The .40 S&W from Cor-Bon (with 135grs Nosler JHP) has an OSS of 96%!!

The 9mm WW ammo (147grs subsonic) the junior LEO used, is a pathetic joke! OSS=77%!!!

I am convinced that REAL stopping power in handgun calibers can only be achieved with light, FAST and expanding/fragmenting large diameter bullets.
 
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