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Official sidearm of the IDF is...?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Tearlachblair, Mar 26, 2008.

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  1. Tearlachblair

    Tearlachblair Member

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    This came up during a convo I was having with a friend. What are the issued sidearms of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF)?
     
  2. Silvanus

    Silvanus Member

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    I think it's the Jericho/Baby Eagle. Not 100% sure though.

    edit : Found this on another site, so maybe they have changed in the meantime.

    [​IMG]

     
  3. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    I thought it was a Glock 19.
     
  4. Mad Magyar

    Mad Magyar Member

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    Anything they get their hands on.....
     
  5. Macpherson

    Macpherson Member

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    I had the opportunity to visit Israel last year, and noticed that there didn't seem to be a consistent sidearm among the various security and military forces. There were a lot of Browning High Powers, and a few Glocks. Some even carried what appeared to be select-fire Jericho pistols with shoulder stocks. The M4 was the common rifle, but I saw more than a few reservists toting M1 carbines...they really get their money's worth from their weapons :D
     
  6. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    The IDF doesn't really have an "issue" pistol that anyone would be carrying on a daily basis, they are only used by special units, on "special" occasions. Anyone you say out-and-about with a pistol was police, border guard, or civilian. Also, no reservist would have an M1 Carbine, they were never IDF issue. Only Civil Guard (Mishmar Ezrachi) would have them. They are old guys, or people who live in small towns or kibbutzim with their own armories who get those. Hey, they might even have been school teachers!
     
  7. esq_stu

    esq_stu Member

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    That seems to be correct. It seems very few in the IDF are issued handguns.

    I'm there twice a year. I've seen all kinds - mainly steel IMI Jericho, Glock 17, and Sig (not sure which), all 9mm. I'll look again in May.
     
  8. Cliff47

    Cliff47 Member

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    If memory serves, the Israelis manufactured their own version of the Browning/FN Hi-Power. Believe the model name was Kareen, sor something like that...
     
  9. BBroadside

    BBroadside Member

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    Yes, Gun Digest 1997 says the Kareen Mk. II was imported from Israel by J.O. Arms and ammunition. Looks like a Browning Hi-Power. There is also a Gal (copied from the 1911, I think) and a Golan (copied from ...?) It doesn't say who made them, and I don't know if they were used by any agencies.

    The Israelis do seem to have a unique attitude toward handguns. A few decades ago they used a lot of Beretta 951s, and I read somewhere they bought the first-generation Rugers. They seem not to care too much for conventional pistols, while making a lot of copies (the Jericho 941 / Baby Eagle line seems quite well-regarded as a copy of the CZ 75). Then there are the thoroughly unconventional designs like the Desert Eagle and the small Uzis, but again I don't know which agencies/units use them. I'd love to see a book on the topic, "IDF handgun development strategy" which would explain this sort of thing.
     
  10. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    The Desert Eagle was designed by an American who couldn't find a buyer in the US. IMI produced it for the civilian market. I don't believe it was ever intended or procured for IDF use.

    As for the micro-Uzi (I suppose that's what you mean by small Uzi, as the mini-Uzi is quite conventional), the select-fire version was intended to fill the perceived need for a rapid fire weapon for close quarters work and for some personnel. It serves the same purpose as the Sterling machine pistol variant (used by some armored crews as the lack of a stock made it handier inside), the MP5K, or the MAC-10. The semi-automatic version was for the civilian market.
     
  11. BBroadside

    BBroadside Member

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    I think you're right, I can't find any evidence that any army was interested in the Desert Eagle. It weighs a whole pound less than the CAR-15 ... and is undoubtedly harder to shoot and more expensive, and less powerful, and more prone to failure. It seems a little out of place that IMI would make a pistol mainly designed for competition and elk hunting, but I guess if it was profitable it made sense just as it would have for a business. (Oddly enough, checking around on the web just now, I found people trashing the DE for some pretty weird reasons ... like the ammo being "almost impossible to find". Funny, I see 357 and 44 Magnum in lots of places....)

    Looking at pictures at israelmilitary.net, I wasn't surprised that I didn't see any handguns, but I was surprised that I didn't see any Galils! I pretty much only saw M4/CAR-15s, although there were a few that I wasn't sure about. I kind of thought the Galil, as an AK-derived design, would be cheaper and thus more numerous than M16 derivatives.

    I've been trying to find a source I dimly remember about the IDF using early Ruger 9mms, but no such luck.
     
  12. strangelittleman

    strangelittleman Member

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    It seems there is some leeway from command to command, brigade to brigade, unit to unit, both in the military and the various police & security forces.
    There have been pics of IDF troopers & police/secutiry forces w/ Hi-Powers, sigP226-228s, Glock 17-19s, Jerichos, CZ-75s & P01s, H&K USP & USPc, Beretta M1951 & M92s, even some w/ Yugo CZ99s variants & the Steyr M1 series.
    The early Rugers were purportedly issued to a small number of IDF air force personnel, not sure who or how well they were received....
    I'd say there's no real brand loyalty aka "Ford vs. Chevy" nonsense, just well-trained troops using what works......and all of the above mentioned work very well.
     
  13. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    The IDF has plenty of Galils, but they are largely in storage. The weapon was found to be too heavy for infantry use, and had some other issues (microfractures being one). So, they put the Galils in storage and broke out/purchased M16s, many of which have been converted to the M4 or Commando styles.
     
  14. BBroadside

    BBroadside Member

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    My curiosity having been piqued by buzz_knox, I looked it up. If anyone is curious:

    Comparing the carbines, the 14.5" M4 weighs 2.52 kg empty. The 13" Galil SAR weight 3.75 kg empty ... almost 50% heavier with a shorter barrel, and probably (my speculation) less options for accesssory attachment.

    So it's no mystery why the IDF chooses the M4s to lug around....
     
  15. ravencon

    ravencon Member

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    Don't know, don't care. But, as a U.S. taxpayer I'm pretty sure that I helped pay for it.
     
  16. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    Don't know but it seems if they copied the CZ and produce the
    Jericho domestically they'd use them since it is similiar ergos to the
    Browning Hi-Powers they have - I read someplace the Israelis in the
    military went to a draw and cok for the BHP. Practice, Practice Practice.

    The Gallil had reliability issues I think.
     
  17. strangelittleman

    strangelittleman Member

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    No reliability problems w/ the Galil, but when it takes around $465 to make one domestically and the raw materials could be used in other things and the U.S. gov't is offeing a virtually unlimited supply of AR rifles plus complete spare parts/ armorer kits & full set of mags for around $150 it only makes sense to go w/ the AR. By the way the 13.5"bbl Galils are still in use w/ the tank crews and yes, we U.S. taxpayers are footing the bill as a part of a foreign internal defense program.
     
  18. pete f

    pete f Member

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    They carry M4's because we pay them to carry them. Thru Foreign Aid to Israel, we "donate" money to them, which is used to buy US made weapons. which more or less means we buy them and give them to them, as well as buying an awful lot of IMI 5.56 ammo to feed them.

    I would like to see support for that cost of 465 USD for a Galil, My information was putting that cost at well under 200 USD, The SA R4 version was costing them less than 125 USD in the late 90's.
     
  19. Shadow1198

    Shadow1198 Member

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    Wow, that is a horribly, god-awful, butt-ugly handgun! ;)
     
  20. Matt-J2

    Matt-J2 Member

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    Shadow1198, that's it's good side. ;)

    You should see that thing in person(if you haven't) and at more angles. It gets even worse.


    I suppose ugly don't mater much if it works...but still, it be ugly, yo.
     
  21. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    I have an ex-Isreali FN manufactured Browning High Power. It still has the yellow "Don't shoot me" ID tape on the side.

    The Isrealies have always used a mix of handguns, pretty much whatever they could get their hands on.

    I think that's why they developed the "Isreali Draw" using an empty chamber. With that many different gun designs, they needed a training technique that would work with ANY pistol. Hence, empty chamber carry. Just draw, rack the slide, and shoot. No need to worry about the condition of the safety, etc.

    Remember that the next time someone goes on and on about how great the Isreali pistol techniques are. They developed that to meet a specific need, not because it was "tactially superior."
     
  22. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    "They carry M4's because we pay them to carry them. Thru Foreign Aid to Israel, we "donate" money to them, which is used to buy US made weapons. which more or less means we buy them and give them to them, as well as buying an awful lot of IMI 5.56 ammo to feed them."

    This does benefit Israel greatly, unless financial factors force them to field an inferior weapon. But the money actually stays in the US providing/maintaining jobs for thousands of Americans.
    The ugly pistol posted a couple above is a Barak/Lightening I believe, not a Jericho.
     
  23. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Jericho 941 and Baby Eagle were a co-operative effort between Tanfoglio of Italy, who made the frames and slides, and IMI, who assembled everything in Israel.

    As for the Barak, (Shhh, don't tell Obama...), that is one huge and clumsy looking thing. Gah.
     
  24. Silvanus

    Silvanus Member

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    It's not better than having a loaded chamber, but it can be done very fast so that it's not that big of a disadvantage.
     
  25. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    They are starting to field Tavor rifles but it seems they don't have the money to replace the M4s any time soon.
     
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