Zak Smith
Member
Nobody's said you can't talk about them on THR.
What has happened is challenges to claims of their relative effectiveness.
What has happened is challenges to claims of their relative effectiveness.
Oh no!...PGO!
- Thread starter Blakenzy
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Nushif
Member
True. You're not allowed to talk positively about them.
But no worries, I'm just making a short stint into the shotgun forum. I'll go back to my handguns now. >.O
But no worries, I'm just making a short stint into the shotgun forum. I'll go back to my handguns now. >.O
Zak Smith
Member
Not true-- but if you have broken arguments or claims that aren't backed up by data, expect to be taken to task.
-z
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
I haven't even added anything here yet and the insults are rolling in.
Sheesh!
As for the video, I see a enthusiastic but not expert shooter having fun, and making a few mistakes. He seems like a nice guy,too.
The idea that a stockless shotgun is just as effective as a fully equipped one is not one of the mistakes. He states as much. He seems to consider it as much for fun as for use in crises.
He recommends not using heavy loads ( Like Buckshot?) in PGOs.
Where he's mistaken is thinking that a PGO is not a giant step backward in effectiveness. It is.
Look at where he's firing slugs at that gong. By the time he gets the thing back down from recoil and shucks it, a decent hand (not an expert) could put three to five slugs in that gong. Or buck in three to five attackers.
Finally, I don't usually close or delete threads. But my experience is telling me that this one is going away after just one more insult directed at anyone. And maybe some posters also.
Stick to the issues, folks....
Sheesh!
As for the video, I see a enthusiastic but not expert shooter having fun, and making a few mistakes. He seems like a nice guy,too.
The idea that a stockless shotgun is just as effective as a fully equipped one is not one of the mistakes. He states as much. He seems to consider it as much for fun as for use in crises.
He recommends not using heavy loads ( Like Buckshot?) in PGOs.
Where he's mistaken is thinking that a PGO is not a giant step backward in effectiveness. It is.
Look at where he's firing slugs at that gong. By the time he gets the thing back down from recoil and shucks it, a decent hand (not an expert) could put three to five slugs in that gong. Or buck in three to five attackers.
Finally, I don't usually close or delete threads. But my experience is telling me that this one is going away after just one more insult directed at anyone. And maybe some posters also.
Stick to the issues, folks....
Youngster
Member
Ask former SEAL Chief and Vietnam vet James Watson in PGOs aren't so effective, an Ithaca 37 with a cut down stock was his primary weapon. I believe he still works at the SEAL/UDT museum in Florida.
Anyway PGOs are not exactly my cup of tea but you can't honestly compare a dialled in shooter with a dialled in full stocked shotgun {especially a semiauto} with some guy playing around with a rough looking gun that he probably doesn't shoot much.
Anyway PGOs are not exactly my cup of tea but you can't honestly compare a dialled in shooter with a dialled in full stocked shotgun {especially a semiauto} with some guy playing around with a rough looking gun that he probably doesn't shoot much.
Zak Smith
Member
You're the guy who said "the video shows they can be shot quickly and accurately".
The video doesn't show that.
I use the average 3-Gun competitor as an example because I see a lot of them at my matches and their performance is scored and measured in an objective way, so we know how fast they are.
Youngster
Member
By your standards, he's not going to be fast or accurate with a full stocked gun either.
Zak Smith
Member
That is another reason why it was silly for you to claim that the video showed that he was fast and accurate with that one.
Exactly.
Oh and if you think that Mr. Smith has not amply demonstrated his shooting proficiency and knowledge you are very mistaken. He is likely one of the most knowledgeable shooters on this forum. He is one of a handful of people here that I find it wise to really sit up and listen when they offer insight.
Youngster
Member
In his context yes, what if we took a better shooter and gave him a better PGO gun than a hacked up beater with no front sight?
I think it is telling that the OP's contentions have evolved. You initially claimed it was a demonstration of fast accurate shooting. That was called into question and now you are stating that there is no comparison between what the video shows and what objectively is fast, accurate shooting. You have in essence conceded what people were initially tacking issue with.
The contention that has been made in this thread is not even that they are not effective per se but rather that they are not as effective as other weapons. The next contention was that nothing in that video demonstrates to the contrary.
No body has a problem with talking good of PGO shotguns. The issue is your "evidence" doesn't support your contentions.
The contention that has been made in this thread is not even that they are not effective per se but rather that they are not as effective as other weapons. The next contention was that nothing in that video demonstrates to the contrary.
No body has a problem with talking good of PGO shotguns. The issue is your "evidence" doesn't support your contentions.
You people just don't like a PG shotgun. With a little bit of common sense and the right ammo a PG shotgun will do everything that you need to do to stop someone that is breaking into your house. It's not necessary to have a Masters Degree from some ridiculous war game facility to shoot 20 feet. Also BG (with a load of buckshot in his chest) will be slowed down enough for you to rack another round.
Youngster
Member
I said he shot "quickly and accurate enough", nowhere did I say or imply he was a competitive grade world beater but in his own context that was about his level best.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Help yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/user/snarkvalid#p/u
Unless you miss. I fail to understand the mentality that says that a weapon in a configuration that makes it unwieldy, difficult to aim, and slow to cycle is somehow a great choice for defensive use when there are options available that are the same price as a PGO shotgun, and are much, much more effective to employ, regardless of the skill level of the shooter.
You are correct that I don't like PGO shotguns, and there's a reason for that: they are plainly inferior to a shotgun with a proper stock for pretty much everything short of door breaching.
Well I for one enjoyed the post and the video. Thanks to the OP for posting the link!
Dave is probably right that if this "debate" about exactly how useless a PGO is allowed to continue it will be locked.
And personally I don't need to measure the exact size of the step backwards when compared to a full stock.
I think we all except that it is a step down or backwards in performance but this debate/discussion always gets hung up on just how far a step down/backwards it is.... and then some would question why a person would take a step down in performance when they could have a bigger better weapon available.
If I was a racer I'd probably feel the same way.
Or if I was at war or dealing with bad guys at work same thing.... give me the best tools for the job.
For having fun at the range or stashing something in a compact space or backpack for a very remote what if situation I'm ok with a PGO for my own personal protection needs.
Hey some people are OK living without guns...
I have a question for the race fans here though?
What do you guys feel is an acceptable rate of fire for a pump gun?
How fast do we need to hit multiple targets before we can be confident with a shotgun?
Obviously accuracy comes first then speed but how fast does a guy have to be in the real world to defend himself?
I'd guess that a lot would come down to muscle memory and how calm a person remains under stress... plus a little luck never hurts.
I guess I can't argue that a racer shooting fast and accurate is better in a worst case scenario with multiple armed attackers but I really wonder if this is what Hickoc was referring to in his video when he says that a PGO could be an effective tool for personal protection in a home defense situation.
Thanks again to the OP for sharing the link.
Dave is probably right that if this "debate" about exactly how useless a PGO is allowed to continue it will be locked.
And personally I don't need to measure the exact size of the step backwards when compared to a full stock.
I think we all except that it is a step down or backwards in performance but this debate/discussion always gets hung up on just how far a step down/backwards it is.... and then some would question why a person would take a step down in performance when they could have a bigger better weapon available.
If I was a racer I'd probably feel the same way.
Or if I was at war or dealing with bad guys at work same thing.... give me the best tools for the job.
For having fun at the range or stashing something in a compact space or backpack for a very remote what if situation I'm ok with a PGO for my own personal protection needs.
Hey some people are OK living without guns...
I have a question for the race fans here though?
What do you guys feel is an acceptable rate of fire for a pump gun?
How fast do we need to hit multiple targets before we can be confident with a shotgun?
Obviously accuracy comes first then speed but how fast does a guy have to be in the real world to defend himself?
I'd guess that a lot would come down to muscle memory and how calm a person remains under stress... plus a little luck never hurts.
I guess I can't argue that a racer shooting fast and accurate is better in a worst case scenario with multiple armed attackers but I really wonder if this is what Hickoc was referring to in his video when he says that a PGO could be an effective tool for personal protection in a home defense situation.
Thanks again to the OP for sharing the link.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I don't know who Hickock is, but from his video he seems like a nice enough guy, so no, I don't have a problem with him.
Nope, he is clearly hitting the targets, and that's certainly always a good thing. What I *do* have a problem with is people who watch one video of a guy enjoying a sunny afternoon on the range, plinking away at static targets and somehow take that as proof that PGO shotguns are useful for more serious applications like defending your family at 3am.
This is untrue. You're more than welcome to talk positively about PGO shotguns. They can make for a fun range toy, for instance.
But if you are going to make serious claims about their effectiveness in other situations, you should expect that you will have to defend your position because there are many people here with a lot of real-world experience who will find such claims to be outlandishly contrary.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
It's not so much a matter of meeting a certain speed qualification for engaging targets.
It's more about picking a defensive weapon with a layout that will not act as an impediment to the user's ability to employ it effectively.
I guess while you guys may be better then most of us when it comes to racing through scenarios and engaging multiple targets on the move, some of us still find it condescending to hear the experts say that defending oneself armed only with a PGO and 4 rounds of buckshot is suicide.
I'm sure that if one was to investigate a little, there may indeed be cases where people were successful defending themselves and their family with a PGO.
Nushif
Member
Funny enough, *I* made absolutely no insinuation that they are "superior" to anything.
*I* simply said that historically anytime anyone on here mentions they even remotely appreciate PGO shotguns three mods and half the shotgun readers jump down their throat about performance.
Me, I like my riot style shotguns, so no beef here. I'm just pointing out that once again ... a positive mention of a PGO shotgun lead to ... well, see for yourself.
And don't give me this spiel about real world experience. In my entire time on the internet I have seen tons and tons of claims about "real world experience." You can prove absolutely *nothing* on the internet.
I have seven years of service in three services combined and that proves ... what? about my opinion here?
Arguing from authority works when you have authority to back it up. Online, this doesn't exist, other than arbitrarily assigned authority as a moderator.
Please ... please. Stop jumping down people's throats. There is a metric (dung)-ton of weapons out there that work for a whole lot of different people in different situations. Because it doesn't work as a race gun ideally doesn't diminish this as a weapon. Because in that case you'd have to jump down every single action shooters throat, too, since after all a double action is indeed the better revolver.
Please, stop dogpilling these poor people and their fun PGO shotguns.
This makes sense to me and I understand exactly where you are coming from.
Out of a dozen shotguns only one of mine is PGO and it would not be my first choice but if it's all I had I'd use it and I'd hate to be the other person or animal in that situation.
Justin that video isn't showing a pump, Apples and oranges. Girodin: I'm just picking, but I do think that too much information can slow some people down, awh whats next. A lot of my friends were Police Officers, I thank every time they went to a training class they would say you need to learn this, we would start shooting, left hand, right hand, in the dark all kinds of things. I've always had a place to shoot at my house. Like my girlfriend she had never shop a pistol in her life, I gave her a S&W Air Weight, drew a picture of the proper sight picture on a piece of paper, told her how to breath, Gave her a box of wad cutters and she went to a ccw class fired the 50 rounds and passed. I didn't confuse her with a bunch of BS. I know a person that has had all of that training with the police he had something happen a few months ago. He's lucky to be living, he did everything wrong. This is a person that trains all the time but has no common sense.
The simple fact that lead comes out the end in lethal doses and hits can be made easily at close range is enough to tell me that it could be useful... Best option no! Useful? Sure why not.... it doesn't have to be the best tool to be useful.
Once again I see where you are coming from , but I guess you can't see where I'm coming from on this topic.
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