Oh no!...PGO!

[amd6547]

Both stocked and PGO's are shotguns...But it is really an apples and oranges comparison.
A high capacity 9mm pistol and a 357mag revolver are both handguns, and if you set up a COF including high round count and reloads, the 9mm is undoubtably superior to the 357mag...right?

 

[Zak Smith]

These COF's

There is no set COF, that's the point. Dave specifically said,

Set up any COF you want at the most LIKELY distance of engagement in your residence. Use anything you want for targets, soda cans, clay pigeons, melons.

In other words, set up courses of fire - short or long - that match what you think your PGO use would look like. Then actually do an objective experiment that measures the performance of the two types of guns. At the end, you have actual data.

 

[Zak Smith]

..........and if I hit the melon on the first try, what's the purpose of timing me?

Well, you can measure the time from "go" to the shot.

And as for why the "I only need one shot" argument is faulty, see post #196.

 

[amd6547]

An accurate COF would require a shoot house similar to the home I live in, with the same tight construction as my house (a very strange tiny two bedroom home).
Having explored moving through my house with both a stocked shotgun and my PGO, I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior...and it stores in an incerdibly small hidey hole.

 

[CoRoMo]

I agree with this video, especially when he says...

hickok45
There's nothing like having a shoulder stock on a gun, but it will actually fire (the video PGO 500).

 

[Leadhead]

Dave, I'll try and do another Snowman shoot this winter with my new Go Pro HD camera and see what the time difference/accuracy is like..

 

[Justin]

That's the silliest thing I've ever read. You want to set up a completely fake scenario, and then call it "real world data".
"Run in place for two minutes and wear welder's goggles". You forgot, "stand on one foot and rub your stomach while weaving a Persian rug, for extra real world data."

..........and if I hit the melon on the first try, what's the purpose of timing me?

This is so entertaining, keep it coming..............

Here's my challenge to you. Take a full stock shotgun of your choice, wear a blindfold, and wear skin diver's flippers. Then run through your house screaming "Banzai" while shooting. See how many windows you break. Now there's real world data.

I'm sorry, but this is the most thoroughly nonsensical thing I've read in quite some time.

Taking your argument at face value, there's no reason to even attempt to set up a course of fire that's even roughly analogous to the situation a gun might be deployed in because it's somehow not realistic?

It seems to me that a reasonably instructive course of fire could be constructed using a couple of PSAC walls, a port or two, and a minimum of targets. I fail to understand how that wouldn't be instructive.

 

[Leadhead]

Don't forget folks the goal is not to prove that PGO is effective... we all agree that no one wants to get shot with a 12 G PGO!
Just like we all agree that in most situations a full stock is a better gun to run.

The goal of the COF challenge is to see if a PGO can best or equal a full stock.
Dave has given a lot of leeway in his challenge that would tilt the results in the PGO's favor.....He is quite confident.
He is also very experienced and has shot PGO.... Dave how much slower would you be hitting targets at 7 yards with a PGO compared to a full stock?

Say 4 shots starting from a low carry position.

Not your fastest time but sort of an average.

This question goes out to all the racers too.... Just wondering what a normal time is to raise the gun and hit 4 man sized targets 7 yards away.

 

[oneounceload]

How about something simple to achieve and measure-shoot some bunker trap, or international skeet with that PGO.....let us know how you do....

 

[amd6547]

Of course, that would make as much sense as using a pro trap gun for a combat COF...

 

[Leadhead]

Hitting clays is easy from spring loaded launchers and hand thrown with the plastic launchers.... I realize that's not the same as your bunker or international, but you should also realize that PGO is not the preferred set up for clay competition and wingshooting... in fact I doubt most clay shoots/shooters would even allow it!

Let's leave that silly argument alone until some PGO loser makes a claim that he can best any man at the clay game with his super shorty PGO....

It will probably be the same fool who said PGO's were better for everything, and got the mods all riled up in the first place. But to be honest I'm still wondering who that was?

 

[Justin]

Claiming that a PGO is always going to be slower than a proper shotgun, and then going on to say that the difference in speed doesn't matter in a practical situation is really the same thing.

As for speed on target with a proper shotgun, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but feel free to dig up any of the videos I've posted to YouTube.

In practicing with a PGO shotgun, the fastest technique that I found was to index the grip along the Iliac Crest, lock my left arm and aim by pivoting my upper body.

Even then, I found the gun to be woefully slow, especially when firing more than one shot. And I'm not talking fractions of a second in timing difference, but 2 seconds or more to go from a low ready position to putting lead on target.

Having to use such a rigid aiming technique in order to consistently make hits would clearly indicate that using such a gun would not be conducive to accurately or quickly firing on the move, from behind cover, or from a nonstandard improvised position.

 

[Leadhead]

Claiming that a PGO is always going to be slower than a proper shotgun, and then going on to say that the difference in speed doesn't matter in a practical situation is really the same thing.

You lost me there Justin,

I try not to use words like "never" "always" and "proper" for that matter!

I prefer often or rarely or seldom because they leave room for Murphy, or some other guy to step into the equation and mess up my perfect understanding of how the universe should unfold.

Even though PGO offers no competitive advantage in sport shooting, it does offer advantages in space and weight savings and this must be weighed against the shortcomings of the PGO.... mainly that it is harder to shoot and requires specific training.

A simple COF for my use would be to bushwack up a steep forested slope while picking pine mushrooms and then remove the gun from my pack scabbard, push a load of birdshot into the tube, pump the action and shoot a grouse.
Sure Dave might be able to keep up but at the end of the day he probably won't have as many mushrooms and his arms will be tired....

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

You lost me there Justin,

Even though PGO offers no competitive advantage in sport shooting, it does offer advantages in space and weight savings and this must be weighed against the shortcomings of the PGO.... mainly that it is harder to shoot and requires specific training.

The space savings is non existent when using a top folder, and minimal when using a side folder, though, and what you gain (the ability to hit the same sized targets at ten times the range) more than makes up for any weight penalty.

The point i'm trying to get across is a shotgun with a stock (and preferably sights) is the most versatile longarm on the planet, capable of doing a very wide variety of jobs. a PGO shotgun is only really good for door breaching and not much else, and a shotgun with a stock will do that from down the hall.

 

[Leadhead]

The point i'm trying to get across is a shotgun with a stock (and preferably sights) is the most versatile longarm on the planet

I agree.... it's so versatile you can even mount a pistol grip if you want and then go back to full stock all with simple tools.

Folders aren't that great in my experience and add weight..... I'd rather deal with the extra length of a full stock at that point.

It's a bit different where I live because we can't use hand guns for bush defense so if you are looking for something compact that can deliver a good punch, and you are strong enough to control one, PGO ain't too bad!

We do have easier access to short shot guns then you guys down south so it is also possible to shorten the length and drop some weight with a shorter barrel.....then you can run a reduced length buttstock and achieve similar results.

 

[Guns and more]

How about something simple to achieve and measure-shoot some bunker trap, or international skeet with that PGO.....let us know how you do....

I'm sure you'll be shocked that there are folks who could care less about bunker trap, and they still consider themselves shooters.
When the International Skeet Tournament is breaking into my home, rest assured I'll select the finest fully stocked shotgun. I wouldn't want to look "Unfashionable".

Question: For home defense, do I need to buy one of those tweed sport coats with the suede patch on the shoulder? I mean, I want to do it right like the "real" experts.
Also, if I fear for my life, do I need to shout, "Release the hounds" when confronting an assailant?

I've really torn up my living room trying to hit the clays between the sofa and lamp.

 

[Leadhead]

I'm sure you'll be shocked that there are folks who could care less about bunker trap, and they still consider themselves shooters.
When the International Skeet Tournament is braking into my home, rest assured I'll select the finest fully stocked shotgun. I wouldn't want to look "Unfashionable".

Question: For home defense, do I need to buy one of those sport coats with the suede patch on the shoulder? I mean, I want to do it right like the "real" experts.

I've really torn up my living room trying to hit the clays between the sofa and lamp.

 

[amd6547]

Ya know...I have a friend who I have been shooting with for a long time. He and I both strted shooting PGO shotguns circa 1979-80, and used to have shooting matches with them...buckshot speed firing out to 25yds, slug shooting at 25yds.
I saw him recently, and over a beer, I mentioned that the "experts" here disdain the PGO shotgun and feel it is worthless for self defense...
He found that laugh out loud funny..."good thing I dont go on the internet for my shooting knowledge" he says.
This is a guy who lives in a rural area, and sometimes walks his property with his PGO Mossberg slung under his jacket, and a Browning HiPower. To see him, you might think he was unarmed, but in fact, he is well armed for threats from zero to 100yds, and you wouldnt want to be a tresspassing meth cooker.

 

[30mag]

No one is going to choose a handgun to defeat a barrier or engage hostiles with, given the availability of anything better. Essentially, that is what PGOs are - a nonsensical compromise in effectiveness when there is generally no need nor any real logic to be found as a reason for that compromise.

I drive a mustang. There is hardly a place for a fully stocked shotgun anywhere.
I promise.

 

[Justin]

I mentioned that the "experts" here disdain the PGO shotgun and feel it is worthless for self defense...

All I've ever asked for is proof. Set up a course of fire. Run video of it. Post it on YouTube so that we may view it and weigh the pros and cons of the platform and the methodologies used.

Yet it has yet to happen. It kind of reminds me of how Sylvia Brown still has yet to collect all of that money from James Randi...

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I drive a mustang. There is hardly a place for a fully stocked shotgun anywhere.
I promise.

if its a 2010 coupe, you have 13.4 cubic feet of trunk space. that's certainly enough room for a folder.

 

[SpamHandler]

All I've ever asked for is proof. Set up a course of fire. Run video of it. Post it on YouTube so that we may view it and weigh the pros and cons of the platform and the methodologies used.

....and we can call it the 'Charles Augusto COF'. Then we can sit back and critique everything that he did wrong. Of course, in the real life encounter he survived and 2 of his assailants are dead, but let's not have a real life incident cloud our judgement.

 

[Justin]

A single anecdote is not hard data. Besides at no point have I, or anyone else said a PGO shotgun can't be used for self defense, just that it's a suboptimal choice for any number of already stated reasons.

 

[Rshooter]

Nine pages later we are still arguing with the mods. :banghead: Think about it.

 

[SpamHandler]

A single anecdote is not hard data.

And yet a single youtube video is hard data?

Besides at no point have I, or anyone else said a PGO shotgun can't be used for self defense, just that it's a suboptimal choice for any number of already stated reasons.

Not in this thread, but in past threads such comments have been made and the attitude seems to have carried over. Personally I'd use a full stock for every use to which a shotgun can be utilized, but far too many fail to realize that pgo's may fit someone else's needs.