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Ohio GUN CLUB says "No CCW here!"

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Brian D., Jun 11, 2004.

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  1. Brian D.

    Brian D. Member

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    Oh. GUN CLUB says "No CCW here!"

    Thought you folks would be interested. Last Friday at Fairfield Sportmens Association, I noticed they'd erected a sign at the entrance that said: "No concealed carry of firearms on this property, except by sworn law enforcement personnel". Thought that was pretty hypocritical, since they teach the CCW class there and make money from same! Also, they have a very large, active pistol section (3,400+ members total in the club) with several types of handgun competition, including matches (like IPSC) where HOLSTERS are required. Just my take, this signage reeks of shotgunner elitism, which rears its ugly head at many clubs. So, anyone got any helpful ideas here?
     
  2. TimRB

    TimRB Member

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    Sounds like it might be an insurance issue. Anyway, you can either obey the rule or disobey it; your choice. I don't know the law there, but I suppose they can legally demand that you not carry. You also can complain about the sign to whoever will listen. If you just disobey the sign, you probably should expect to be thrown out of the club at any time.

    Tim
     
  3. JNW

    JNW Member

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    Our range in Clermont County (Miami Valley R&P) doesn't have signs posted but we've got the same policy ie. no CCW on club property. All weapons being carried or used by members/guests must remain unloaded until the range(s) is hot and you're at the firing line (or next in line to shoot).

    It's probably a safety issue and may be an NRA insurance issue also.

    - Joe
     
  4. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    That was the rule at FSA when I joined, but I expected it to change with the advent of CCW licensing in Ohio. Not so. At the new member orientation, one of the ruling class proudly held up his Florida CCW a stated that they would be offering training as soon as the law passed in Ohio. One class that I've heard of and info on enrolement is nearly impossible to get.

    Unfortunately the club is run by a bunch of old authoritarians who pride themselves on being "sportsmen." I don't know that they think the 2nd Amendment is about hunting and target shooting; I think they just don't care either way. Generally, the only "fun" allowed on premises is to shoot at mellons or water jugs at the plinking range (handguns and .22LR long guns only). I routinely rant to Black92LX about this. He is a patient listener, or else thinks I'm nuts and doesn't want to set me off.

    Anybody know whether the Miami Valley club is a little more pro-2nd Amendment in their attitude? If it's an insurance or NRA thing, then why do all the ranges that other THR members talk about not have all these extra rules?
     
  5. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    I belong to a gun club that has the same weird policy.

    I am not advocating breaking club policies here, but if you've got it concealed, exactly how would anyone know that you've got it on while you're at the club?????????

    hillbilly
     
  6. Blackcloud6

    Blackcloud6 Member

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    Its funny and sad at the same time but I find many gun clubs are like this. There are usually a bunch of folks who the club is theirs' and all the other members are of a second class nature.
     
  7. Brian D.

    Brian D. Member

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    Henry:

    Hello. I'm a member at Miami Rifle and Pistol. Can't recall there being anything specifically anti-CCW in the rules/bylaws, but there sure as heck isn't any such signage posted! BTW, Henry: Next time one of the "authoritarians" out there bug you, ask them about the good ol' buddy trapshooter (first name: Art) who's ND'd no less than THREE holes in the clubhouse ceiling with his "non-evil" shotguns! And unless he croaked recently, the old coot is still a member, never disciplined for his foul ups!
     
  8. scbair

    scbair Member

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    Members at my club are ENCOURAGED to CCW; it's in a rural location, and sooner or later some local ne'er-do-well is gonna decide that people with enough funds to affort recreational shooting probably have some cash, and the firearms themselves are valuable loot. I'd hate to be caught with all arms unloaded.:rolleyes:
     
  9. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    Thanks, Brian. I'd like to tour the Miami R&P some time. I joined FSA because I enjoy non-competitive trap and skeet shooting (moving targets, you know) from time to time and your club has very limited shotgun facilities. I'm rethinking my decision. I live and work about equal distance between the two.
     
  10. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Brian, maybe you should buy a pack of these:

    [​IMG]
    get them here

    and give them to the membership people at the club on your way out.


    Frankly I won't support any business that doesn't allow me to carry ... gun club, gun shop or waffle house it doesn't matter.


    The other option is if they have an elected board, time to get your campaign face out and run on this issue.
     
  11. 444

    444 Member

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    This sounds typical of most gun clubs.
    I was at an handgun match the other day and after finishing my run I cleared my gun but forgot to lower the hammer. So I was walking around with my 1911 in a holster and the thumb safety engaged (returned to the holster in a manner that is a long standing habit of mine). Some guy said, hey, your hammer is supposed to be down. You are scareing me.
    Isn't that a fine note. Having a handgun in a holster cocked and locked scares another shooter. This is why we are going to lose this battle. Even other shooters view guns as objects that can do harm all by themselves and arn't safe even when holstered.

    I have attended a shooting school that I won't name that is near my home. The whole idea of the school is personal protection. They talk about mind set, the color code of mental awareness, drawing from concealment, problems #2 and #3..................................... They even brag about how much better their students are than other schools etc. Guess what ? I can legally carry a concealed firearm pretty much anywhere in the state, BUT NOT THERE. No loaded guns are allowed there. :barf:
     
  12. Brian D.

    Brian D. Member

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    Zundfolge:

    Thanks, I already have some of those excellent cards, and I've notified Ohioans for Concealed Carry directly on this matter as well. Not currently being a member of FSA, I'm trying to refrain from any direct confrontation with their "management"--for the moment. Truth be known, back into the early 90s I was not only a member, but pistol section leader at FSA as well. Although I switched to Miami Rifle and Pistol mainly because it had more suitable facilities for the Cowboy Action matches I wanted to start up and run, this shotgunner snobbishness at Fairfield influenced my decision too. A couple too many folks on the board had low opinions of pistoleros (and our guns) at that time, and apparently it is true now as well!:fire:
     
  13. trapperjohn

    trapperjohn Member

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    Hillbilly, when i joined that club I was told that it was no conceled UNLESS you had a permit. Either they changed it or there is a misunderstanding by one of us.
     
  14. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    It's not a RKBA issue, its a safety issue.

    Most (not all) ranges operate on the "Cold Range" principle. On a cold range all guns are unloaded unless you are on the firing line shooting. Even in IDPA type competitions where you are carrying a holstered weapon, you don't load until you go to the line to shoot.

    Another of the rules of a cold range is that no-one is allowed forward of the firing line until all guns are on the bench with the actions open.

    You can't allow people to carry loaded handguns (open or concealed) when they aren't on the line shooting and run a true "cold range." The very act of having a loaded gun violates the first rule of a cold range, that guns are unloaded unless you are on the firing line firing. Keeping a loaded gun on your person also violates the "all actions are open before anyone goes forward of the line" policy.

    Now, I will admit that you could modify the cold range rules to exempt guns carried by CCW holders, but I don't have a problem with ranges that stick to a strict "cold range" policy.

    If I'm at the range and I'm forward of the line, I don't want some idiot to pull out his loaded CCW piece to show his buddy when he's behind me. That's how accidents happen.

    Yes, it seems kind of silly to ban loaded guns at a range, or a gunshop, or even at a gun show, but that's one of the few places where I can agree to a no CCW policy. People are more likely to pull out a pistol at a gunshop or gun show to show someone or check a holster or whatever then they are to pull out that same pistol in a non-gun business. If your in a situation where people are routinely handling guns that are suppossed to be unloaded, it's a bad idea to allow loaded guns in the same area.

    While a range and a gun show are different venues, some of the same rules about unloaded guns apply. If you want to see the need for those rules, just look at how many accidental shootings there have been at gun shows in the last few years.
     
  15. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    Very, very few, actually (though we hear about each and every one).
    Then make the rule apply to the particular range during a particular event -- not all 100 acres of archery, rifle, trap, skeet, plinking, fishing lake, etc. I realize that you didn't make the particular rule in question. But the attitude of "it [the rule] doesn't bother me" is the main problem at this particular club. :fire:

    Another recent rule at this club is that no kids under 16 (14 on trap and skeet) may shoot ANY firearms -- even with one-on-one adult supervision -- except during an official organized club program for juniors. I complained to the club president and was told that there had been a couple of instances of club members allowing their teenagers to shoot without actual supervision (already a violation of the existing rules). I told him how disappointed I was that could not now take my 7 year old daughter to this "family" club and allow her to pull the trigger on a single shot bolt action .22 even with my arms wrapped around hers. He said that we could discuss arranging an exception if I had something like that in mind. BS! No more of this elitism! Either the rule is right or it's wrong. Don't punish all for the rare acts of a very few. Seems I've heard that principle touted here on THR -- but then the rulers of this club are not of the same thinking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2004
  16. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    If we're unsafe at a gun club or gun range then why aren't we unsafe at the grocery store or walking through the park?

    I believe it IS an RKBA issue, because gun clubs should be setting the tone ... they should be helping us law abiding gun owners to shed the image that many fence sitters and antis have that guns are "extremely dangerous" when carried by non LEOs.

    Now I can certainly understand safety rules that require you to keep it holstered accept at the firing line, but not allowing you to walk in with your CCW piece is just stupid.
     
  17. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    Now that's a different situation entirely and I agree with their reccomendation in that circumstance. If I'm out plinking in a rural location, I also keep a CCW on my person at all times. But, most private clubs don't have that security concern because they are more easily able to restrict access to club members only.
     
  18. Stepbyrd

    Stepbyrd Member

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    Normally at a grocery store or in a public park, you not as likely to pull your pistol to show it to someone else.
     
  19. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Go re-read my post ... I have no problem with rules that require you to keep your piece holstered unless you're on the firing line. But thats not what the anti-CCW rules state.
     
  20. Greg L

    Greg L Member

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    However it seems that they want a cold range for everyone but the police. More of the fine for me but not for thee mentality. I'm on the other side of the metro area from the FSA & have never been there so I can't comment on that facility. However there is one local range that I used to go to where some of the local depts shot. One of the reasons that I don't go there anymore (prices, attitude, etc being the others) is the gun handling that I have seen local police officers demonstrate scared the crap out of me (lots of holes in the ceiling/chips out of the concrete floor by the bench :eek: ). And this is by those who want to practice. Granted there are many safe & excellent shooters in the ranks of the police force, however there are also many who hate the idea of dragging a pistol around with them wherever they go. So don't presume to tell me that I, someone who has made the choice to get the training & go about my day armed, am any less competent/safe than those who are putting holes in your ceiling. :fire:

    I prefer a hot range anyway, people tend to pay attention more if every gun is assumed to always be loaded.

    Greg
     
  21. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Another Ohioan here. My range allows concealed carry, 50 cal, full auto, AP, incendiary, and anything else you can throw down range. And it doesn't even charge a fee or membership dues for guest shooters.

    I don't mean to gloat, but the range is my side yard. :D
     
  22. md2lgyk

    md2lgyk Member

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    My club doesn't have anything specifically about CCW in its rules (CCW being nearly nonexistent in Maryland anyway) but I tend to agree with others here that for clubs that do, it's a safety/liability issue and not a RKBA issue. The concern is that the gun is loaded, not that it's concealed. At our ranges, except for specific matches requiring it (PPC, Cowboy Action), even open carry of a loaded weapon is prohibited.
     
  23. hvengel

    hvengel Member

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    I shoot at a range that is cold with one exception. That exception is for action pistol shooting. All action pistol shooters are required to go throug a 1 day training class. This is about 2 hours of class room and about 4 hours on the range. After the class when the action pistol range is open everyone carries thier pistols loaded. There is a safety area were you load/unload and hoster/unhoster your gun. Outside of the safety area if you touch your gun and you are not on the firing line you will be asked to leave the range for the day. If you drop your gun on the firing line you will be asked to leave for the day. If you do anything that the range officers consider unsafe you will be asked to leave for the day. If you have 3 such incedents you will not be allowed on the action pisol range again. I have only seen two shooters asked to leave. In one case the shooter droped his gun while drawing and in the other case the shooter did not remove his finger from the trigger while rehostering. No one that I know of has had more than one such incedent. I have never seen a AD at the action pistol range and I have never seen anyone hurt as a result of a gun mishap on this range.

    Hot ranges are safe IF eveyone on the range has proper training and knows the range rules. It also requires that range officers pay very close attention to eveyone on the range. For public ranges these conditions are very difficult to meet so they are always run as cold ranges.

    Does this justify a no CCW rule to keep the range totaly cold or should there be a presumtion that CCW permit holders have had the training needed to be safe? Although I favor allowing CCW on shooting ranges this is not a simple call.
     
  24. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Not in Ohio; but here in Texas I've seen it handled several ways.

    With a fixed firing line, the most common is that the gun must stay concealed and in the holster until you are on the firing line. With IPSC/IDPA style shooting, usually a berm is assigned for people to make their guns cold before the match begins and the match is run on a cold range.
     
  25. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    Mr. Labe -- Care to PM your address (or host a SW Ohio THR get together)?

    Yes, the club in question also bans all .50BMGs. But the longest range is only 300 yds and I'm told that the backstop is insufficient for .50s.
     
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