Ohio Man arrested for selling guns out of state

[honestlou]

Quote:
Originally Posted by docnyt
You cannot legally buy or sell a handgun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.
Fixed it for you, bud.

You can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state, so long as both state's laws are observed. Selling any gun to a dealer in any state is not illegal, so "selling" isn't needed here.

Actually, you didn't fix it-- he was correct. The key phrase was "except through an FFL".
To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.

NavyLt, you are correct in your original assertion in that a strict reading of the statute makes it a crime to sell out of state, even if the transfer goes through an FFL. Generally a sale is a sale, and is not dependant upon delivery,
although this could vary under state law-regardless, it's not relevant here.

I believe the reason that this is not an issue is that the primary concern is the transfer, and the way that string of words is used is basically as all synonyms for any kind of transfer--the intent was not to list separate types of actions, but to cover all types of transfers.

It could have simply used the phrase "any transfer", but you know how wordy lawyers can be. I see this as similar to contracts of sale, where the language is "I hereby sell, transfer, and assign...". We really just mean "sell". We're not doing three separate things--we're just selling.

 

[nalioth]

You cannot legally buy or sell a handgun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.

Fixed it for you, bud.

You can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state, so long as both state's laws are observed. Selling any gun to a dealer in any state is not illegal, so "selling" isn't needed here.

Actually, you didn't fix it-- he was correct. The key phrase was "except through an FFL".

You should read the original post see what was changed (hint: look at the colors). Here is docnyt's original post:

You cannot legally buy or sell a gun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.

docnyt's sentence has ALL firearm transfers being funneled through an in-state FFL, not just handguns.

To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.

This is untrue. Anyone can buy a handgun from anyone in any other state, they just have to receive it through an FFL holder in their state of residence.

 

[honestlou]

From nalioth:

You should read the original post see what was changed (hint: look at the colors). Here is docnyt's original post:

Quote:
You cannot legally buy or sell a gun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.

docnyt's sentence has ALL firearm transfers being funneled through an in-state FFL, not just handguns.

docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.

By nalioth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by honestlou
To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.

This is untrue. Anyone can buy a handgun from anyone in any other state, they just have to receive it through an FFL holder in their state of residence.

You are correct here, and I did mistate what I intended. I intended to say that the transfer of a handgun has to be through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence. It is not the "sale" that is relevant, only the "transfer".

 

[nalioth]

docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

A citizen can transfer a long gun from any FFL in any state, so long as both state's laws are honored.
If there is a state that does not allow for gun purchases made in person in other states, your reasoning would apply for a resident of that state.
If there is a state that does not allow non-residents to buy longarms directly from its local gun shops, your reasoning would apply.

 

[honestlou]

By nalioth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by honestlou
docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

A citizen can transfer a long gun from any FFL in any state, so long as both state's laws are honored....

I agree with this statement, but it is not inconsistent with what I stated.

I am not certain that we are disagreeing, and it may just be the language used. When I say "interstate transfer", I mean that the firearm travels from the seller in one state to the buyer in a different state. I think that this is the accepted definition of "interstate". You seem to be addressing the residencies of the two parties, but in my view, if two parties from different states do a face to face transaction, it is not an interstate transfer.


All interstate transfers have to be completed through an FFL in the buyer's state. If you ship me any firearm (interstate), I have to receive it through an FFL in Louisiana(because I am in Louisiana) If you and I are standing face to face in a state other than Louisiana, that is not an interstate transfer, and that transaction can be completed through an FFL in the state we are in. And I suppose that you could ship a long gun to another state, and I could do the transfer through an FFL in that state--but that's not what most people think of when talking about buying a gun interstate. [this was added for technical clarity]

If the two parties are residents of different states, the transaction has to go through an FFL, regardless of where or how the transfer takes place. If it is a long gun, and the parties are together at the time, the transfer can take place through an FFL wherever they happen to be. If it is a handgun, it can only take place in the state of residence of the buyer.

 

[D94R]

"Face to face sales, if not an FFL, need be non one else's business. Buy and sell 5 or 500 and it's no one's business how much money you make or lose." Well, that's not always the case, it seems.

I said that. And, face to face sales being legal, we all assume the intentions of that comment are in regards to the fact that the entire sale of the firearm itself is legal. As in not across state lines, not fully automatic transfers to ineligable persons, not being sold to felons etc etc.

Don't twist the context of a comment as a misguided source to your thread. As my comment and the subject of your thread clearly aren't the same.

 

[X-Rap]

And this ladies and gentlemen is why we have a 5000 page health care bill and a tax code that fills a UHaul truck.
These people have a common interest in the discussion of 42 year old legislation.

 

[leadcounsel]

Here's another twist - can Tom Texan, while on vacation to Arizona, sell his handgun to Terry Texan, also on vacation to Arizona?

These laws infuriate me. Say Tom Texan is on vacation in Wisconsin and has his handgun (his only means of self defense) stolen. He cannot buy a gun anywhere except in Texas. What if isn't planning to return to Texas for a long time. He must remain unarmed until he returns to Texas. This, to me, seems like a clear violation of equal protections under the laws and flatly unconstitutional.

 

[Sam1911]

I believe the answer to that question is no. At least in reading the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.

An unlicensed person may transfer a firearm TO a resident of his state. (A resident...but doesn't say IN his state.)

BUT, an unlicensed person may only aquire a firearm IN his or her own state -- except from a dealer.

Odd way of putting it, but seems the answer is no.

 

[CoRoMo]

...the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.

The way the law is worded though, it appears that Tom & Terry Texan can buy and sell each other a firearm, while they are both on vacation in Arizona, but transporting or receiving that firearm back to Texas would violate the law. The sales transaction looks to be legal, but getting the gun back inside the state looks dicey. For some reason, I don't find the unlawful acts pertaining to purchasing, only transporting / receiving in the state of residency. Maybe I'm missing the right subsection though.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State...

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell... any firearm to any person ... who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides...

B3 shows that it is a violation for an unlicensed person to bring the gun back to their state.

B5 shows that the sales transaction, while taking place outside of the state, doesn't violate that law.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

After all, don't all our GunBroker transactions, even between same state residents, take place in Kennesaw Georgia?

 

[Sam1911]

The way the law is worded though

Yeah. I wondered if maybe the ATF didn't insert a slightly different phrasing in their FAQ than was used in the law. But the cited a couple of different things and I didn't have time to look them all up.

 

[Sam1911]

Ah ha. It appears the Code of Federal Regulations cite specifies the trouble pretty clearly:

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of
firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State
where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity,
where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained
by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of
this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest
or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting
the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun
obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or
licensed collector in a State other than the transferee’s State of residence in
an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee’s premises obtained in conformity
with the provisions of § 478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained
in conformity with the provisions of §§ 478.30 and 478.97.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I believe the answer to that question is no. At least in reading the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.

An unlicensed person may transfer a firearm TO a resident of his state. (A resident...but doesn't say IN his state.)

BUT, an unlicensed person may only aquire a firearm IN his or her own state -- except from a dealer.

Odd way of putting it, but seems the answer is no.

And there's a reason for that...

State laws only apply within the borders of that state. For example, PA requires handgun private sales to go through an FFL. So, without the wording in Federal law the way it is, two PA residents could go to a nearby state, do the private sale there, and then return to PA - thus skirting the PA law.

In Ohio, private sales of handguns to 18 to 20 year olds is prohibited. Without the Federal law, an 18 yo Ohio resident could meet another Ohio resident across the border and buy the handgun and return home, thus skirting Ohio law.

 

[Kenneth]

Don't Iraqi citizens get to sell their assault rifles across province lines without having to worry about running afoul of laws written in "word salad" just to trip them up??? :banghead:

 

[billybob44]

It seems like it's written in perfectly clear English to me. Selling not only involves collecting the money, but you have to deliver the goods as promised to have a completed sale.

By shipping the gun to the dealer you have met the precise letter of the law. You have not delivered, sold, transferred a firearm to a prohibited out-of-state person. The sale is not a sale until the buyer takes delivery and the buyer does that from a licensed dealer. Read the part about "other than a licensed dealer." They've specifically listed who is exempt from the prohibitions and who you/we can send a gun to out-of-state.

"transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector)"

The sale is not complete until the FFL completes it by delivering the gun as specified in the law.

John

This is exactly what I am doing now. I am having a Rem. 700 sent to my FFL Dealer in Indy, from the seller in KY.
Has anyone heard that it IS legal for Non-Licensed citizens, from different AJOINING states, to buy/sell between each other, FTF, without having a FFL involved??

 

[X-Rap]

It seems that gun laws could be very simply written on one sheet of paper and taken for literal value but alas the states each want to skin the cat in a different way. I guess that is best but the federal laws should be easy.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Has anyone heard that it IS legal for Non-Licensed citizens, from different AJOINING states, to buy/sell between each other, FTF, without having a FFL involved??

Yep. I've heard it many times. It's not true, though.

Adjoining states has nothing to do with it - and hasn't had anything to do with it since 1986 when the Federal law was amended.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

 

[billybob44]

Thanks LT

LT, as usual "You 'D' Man"! I've heard this adjoining state rumor from several, on other gun forums, since this deal that I am making has began.
I sent a signed FFL with the Postal Money Order to KY., and the seller is sending the 700 to my dealer(with the FFL), for me to pick up, in the Indy area.
My FFL Dealer+I are tight enough that we trade brass together+I worked his table at the last Indy 1500 Gun Show, here last month. We will work another 1500 in March. Thanks again NavyLT..Bill.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

yes LT that may be true but the person also sold hanguns if I remember it right which is not covered by the ammendment. man that guy travelled a long way from the top of the state of Ohio down into another state to do the tranaction. wonder how they connected originally?

Another twist is ffl to ffl transfers. you as a ffl dealer can not go to another state and sell firearms unless you do it in one of two ways.
#1 you have your firearms shipped to another ffl dealer in the state you wish to sell them in and the recieving ffl dealer handles transfers and then ships them back after the show.

#2 you take them into the state your self but when you sell a firearm in another state you must return to your state that you hold your ffl and then shipped sold firearm back to the state of the purchaser to a ffl holder from the purchasers state.

Remember even if you are a ffl holder it is illigal for the ffl holder to take possession of a firearm in a state he does not have his license in from a dealer who does not have a license in the state of purchase.

For example: say you are a ffl holder in texas and you travel to tulsa for the big gun show. you find a firearm you wish to purchase. the ffl holder you are buying the firearm threw actually holds his license in nebraska and has brought the firearms into the state himself. the ffl that is selling the firearm must return to his home state and ship said firearm to the ffl that purchased it which is texas. they can not just trade ffl's in tulsa.

So when you see a dealer at a show that you know for a fact he is not from your state it really makes you wonder how he is selling his firearms doesn't it?

 

[NavyLCDR]

yes LT that may be true but the person also sold hanguns if I remember it right which is not covered by the ammendment

I think you might have misunderstood my post and did not read the link I provided. ALL sales of firearms between non-FFL holding residents of differing states are illegal, regardless of if the states are contiguous or not and regardless of if the firearm is a handgun or a long gun.

The ONLY sales of firearms that are legal outside the state of residence of the purchaser or from a resident of a different state are long guns purchased and transferred by and at the place of business of an FFL, if the sale of the long meets the requirements of the state laws of both the purchaser and the FFL.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

yep I miss read the quote you used from the other poster.

 

[BBQLS1]

It sounds like he was trying to sell a handgun to someone in another state without using a FFL. That would be breaking Federal Law (Gun Control Act of 1968).