OK, I understand 6.5 Creedmore is ballistically superior to .308 Win, but....

[RussellC]

.223 available now, 210.00 per 1000. Seems a little high compared to 1000 LC, but there may be a little less processing.

Russellc

 

[Llama Bob]

Ballistically there's very little difference at 300y. Maybe 10% difference in wind drift or something.

Recoil-wise, the difference basically follows the bullet weight. There's not much difference between a .308 firing 155 scenars and a 6.5CM firing 140 ELDs. But there is a big difference if the .308 is firing 175gr SMK match loads.

I'd probably go .308 instead of 6.5CM for your application. Personally I went the other way around because I shoot out to 1000y with some regularity and the ballistic difference is notable.

The Savage rifle you're looking at is likely to be accurate and have decent stock stability and a good trigger. Personally I find the action on savages a bit rough a lot of times. That's sort of a nit pick, but on something I'm going to be shooting a lot it kind of diminishes the fun of owning it.

 

[LoonWulf]

Yeah the starline brass ive used has been straiten the neck dents, chamfer and go. Little or no other case work....again only pistol rounds and .458 tho.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ballistically there's very little difference at 300y. Maybe 10% difference in wind drift or something.

Recoil-wise, the difference basically follows the bullet weight. There's not much difference between a .308 firing 155 scenars and a 6.5CM firing 140 ELDs. But there is a big difference if the .308 is firing 175gr SMK match loads.

I'd probably go .308 instead of 6.5CM for your application. Personally I went the other way around because I shoot out to 1000y with some regularity and the ballistic difference is notable.

The Savage rifle you're looking at is likely to be accurate and have decent stock stability and a good trigger. Personally I find the action on savages a bit rough a lot of times. That's sort of a nit pick, but on something I'm going to be shooting a lot it kind of diminishes the fun of owning it.

They DO all seem to have a heavy rough bolt lift, there are some things that you can do to help with that tho....otherwise the ones ive messed with have been pretty good, if a little looser than some of my other guns.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

My next Build/Buy will be a bolt action tactical type gun, that for now anyway will be used for target purposes. Most ranges near me are limited to 100 yards. One is out to 300 yards. I know some property owners where this could be longer, but not much. 300- to 500 the max as far as I can see right now. Again, the most of my plinking will be at the very close by 100 yard ranges.

I have considered building/buying in 5.56/.223, but for the money I would like something useful if I do gravitate to longer ranges. At say a 300 yard range, is there still any "superiority" to the 6.5 Creedmoor round?

I understand there is less recoil with the Creedmoor, but I dont remember .308 being anything like I remember 30 06 to be. My shoulders do not give me trouble YET, but I am 61 years old. The recoil (I only fired a few rounds through a friends .308) could be a factor, I tend to spend a while when I go to the range.

Now to demonstrate the depth of my stupidity, lets say I purchased/built a .223 bolt gun, Howa action, Tikka, whatever. I assume this small caliber gun could not be later rebarreled to a larger (.308 or 6.5 CM) later on? Obviously the barrel would have to change, and I assume the bolt as well, making it a nonsensical transformation, right?

For purposes here, let's limit the conversation to 6.5 CM or .308...I understand there are others to consider, the only exception I can think of if a caliber would be ballistically similar to .308/6.5 CM at the ranges I am stuck with but could reasonably be transformed from 5.56/.223, which I reason does not exist

OK, let her rip...

Russellc.

Ranges where B.C. and crazy winds and super intricate equipment doesnt really come into play until about 600y and out. Then it gets more complicated at 1000y and beyond.
I would consider logistics in your location, the difference between the two at these distances wont matter too much.
Next is, I personally believe that the heavier the bullet flying into you is, the more kinetic energy is transferred. I give most of the terminal ballistics to the .308.....it has the size and the sectional density to matter. Thats not to say that the 143 elx in 6.5 isnt good for hunting or whatever...just doesnt have the same hit as a heavier bullet. At close range...either or will do the trick...hence why i said logistics.

 

[Txhillbilly]

I'm building my 4th 6.5 Creedmoor right now. The first 3 were built off a Savage short action and E.R. Shaw & Shilen barrels,all shoot excellent with the best 5 shot group coming from one of the Shaw barrels at .122" -100 yards.,using my handloads with a 140 gr Berger VLD bullet.

Savage will be the easiest way to build an accurate rifle.The actions don't need to be trued like others since Savage uses a floating bolt head design. I've trued one of my Savage actions,it doesn't shoot any better than any of my factory actions.
If you want to go the custom action route,Shilen - BigHorn - and American Rifle Co. all make actions with the Savage barrel thread,so you can use any Savage pre-fit barrel on them.
Using a Savage action,you can assemble a great rifle for $1000 - 1500 minus optics,depending on the things you want. Using a custom action,the sky's the limit on what you can spend.

I'm using a LH Shilen DGR action on my current build,along with a Shilen Select Match barrel,a Northland trued barrel nut. I will be putting it in a KRG Whiskey 3 LH Chassis,installing a Bix'n Andy 2 stage TacSport trigger,and topping the 20 moa rail with an IOR Valdada 4-28x50 Recon scope in ARC M10 medium 40mm rings. This will be my ultimate rifle build,and yes it is expensive,and I may be a little crazy. I'll be using the new Lapua 6.5 CM small primer brass with this rifle,I use Hornady & Nosler/Norma brass with the Savage based 6.5 CM that I currently shoot.

 

[RussellC]

Well I dont hunt other than at the super market and they only let me use a cart. Lol. I am going with the 6.5 CM, as I may indulge in longer distances later, and since it has slightly less recoil and capable of better bsllistics if I do venture longer ranges seems to make sense. I may get the cheaper Tikka for the better action, I think it also has a fairly easy to change barrel, as does the Ruger. Dont know about the Rugers action, but I here great things about the Tikka action. Then theres the Howa, and here we go again! At least I have settled on a caliber.

Russellc

 

[earplug]

Look at the cost and ballistics of a 243. If you want a rifle you can swap barrels with it uses the same bolt as a 308.

 

[RussellC]

Likewise the 6.5, but if I were going that direction, it would be 22 250, but that really doesnt appeal to me either. At the shorter ranges, it would be no better than the .308, (speaking of 243) and at longer ranges, should I end up there, the 6.5 CM would better than both.

That said, I would likely would not turn down an earth shattering deal on a 243, ( or 22 250) but only to rebarrel to 6.5 CM. The debate in my head is over 6.5 CM vs .308, and that's the way I am going this time, anyway.

Thanks for the input however, I need to hear it all!
Much appreciated,

Russellc

 

[horsey300]

Likewise the 6.5, but if I were going that direction, it would be 22 250, but that really doesnt appeal to me either. At the shorter ranges, it would be no better than the .308, (speaking of 243) and at longer ranges, should I end up there, the 6.5 CM would better than both.

That said, I would likely would not turn down an earth shattering deal on a 243, ( or 22 250) but only to rebarrel to 6.5 CM. The debate in my head is over 6.5 CM vs .308, and that's the way I am going this time, anyway.

Thanks for the input however, I need to hear it all!
Much appreciated,

Russellc

Well......you COULD get a budget axis 2 for $400(ish) in any chambering you desire(6.5cm included) shoot the barrel out of it if you like or rebarrel for another $250-400(ish) and slap on a stock of your choosing for however much you wanna spend.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

They have HBAR axis now...I'm pretty sure in 65 creed too. Look like a decent little gun. MDT makes chassis for them as well.

 

[Gtscotty]

Not arguing as you are correct, location and availability drives cost, here in hawaii more so than elsewhere.

Here are the products im referencing, locally i can get these for about 5 bucks a box more than midway.

.308
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...r-308-diameter-168-grain-boat-tail-box-of-100

6.5 (was looking for amax but they dont seem to be available anymore, last few boxes i ordered were 30-32 i think)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...m-264-diameter-123-grain-boat-tail-box-of-100

I didn't know starline offered any bottle neck rounds, well besides .458 socom, thats pretty cool i use alot in pistol cals.

Heres what i paid locally for a couple boxes the 208s are from a year or so ago, 143s from last month or the month before.

Again, it's important to do an apple to apple comparison, comparing an Amax in one caliber to the newer, universally more expensive ELD in another caliber isn't exactly a fair comparison is it?

A fair comparison would be to compare that 168gr Amax to the recently discontinued 120gr Amax:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...m-264-diameter-120-grain-boat-tail-box-of-100

In which the 120gr is $2 cheaper.

Or you could compare the 123gr ELD to the 168gr ELD:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...r-308-diameter-168-grain-boat-tail-box-of-100

In which case they are the same price, but that's not the usual case, usually the 6.5's are cheaper, as you'll see below.

Here's a few of the common match bullets in each caliber and their cost on Midway per 100... I think you'll see a pattern.

Sierra

.264
130gr TMK: $37.49
140gr SMK: $36.99
142gr SMK: $40.99


.308
168gr TMK: $41.99
175gr SMK: $37.99
200gr SMK: $43.49
210gr SMK: $69.98 (first .308 hpbt weight with BC higher than 142gr 6.5)


Berger

.264
130gr VLD: $46.99
140gr Hybrid Target: $48.99
140gr Elite Hunter: $49.99


.308
175gr VLD: $54.99
185gr Hybrid Target: $54.99
180gr Elite Hunter: $54.99
200gr Hybrid Target: $55.99 (similar BC to 140gr Hybrid)


Nosler

.264
123gr CC: $29.99
140gr CC: $29.99
140gr RDF: $31.49


.308
168gr CC: $32.49
175gr CC: $32.49
190gr CC: $34.99
175gr RDF: $35.99

Surely there is no need to go on?

 

[LoonWulf]

Fair enough. Like i said, i basically shoot all hornady bullets and the cheapest brass available, so my comparisons tend to be bassed on those factors.

 

[Gtscotty]

Well I dont hunt other than at the super market and they only let me use a cart. Lol. I am going with the 6.5 CM, as I may indulge in longer distances later, and since it has slightly less recoil and capable of better bsllistics if I do venture longer ranges seems to make sense. I may get the cheaper Tikka for the better action, I think it also has a fairly easy to change barrel, as does the Ruger. Dont know about the Rugers action, but I here great things about the Tikka action. Then theres the Howa, and here we go again! At least I have settled on a caliber.

Russellc

If you like the Tikkas, you can get a heavier barrel Tikka in 6.5 CM with the CTR model:

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241

The price is $880... pretty much a killer deal on an awesome rifle. I have a Tikka CTR non-stainless in .308 that I paid more than that for right when they came out, and it is one of my most accurate rifles. I'd personally take that rifle over the Savage Stealth, especially at that price, but I'm not a huge Savage fan so YMMV.

 

[Gtscotty]

Fair enough. Like i said, i basically shoot all hornady bullets and the cheapest brass available, so my comparisons tend to be bassed on those factors.

There is usually less difference in price on the Hornady bullets than some of the other brands. I actually shoot the Nosler CC's in my RPR. They aren't the absolute slickest, but the Litz G7 is a respectable .281, and, perhaps most importantly for me, I was able to get my last pack of 1,000 for $192 shipped. I used to shoot .308 Winchester brass, which was cheaper than Hornady, but primer leakage and early brass failure in a couple of chamberings eventually lead me to just give up on it and move to Hornady, mostly because it's always available in my area.

 

[LoonWulf]

There is usually less difference in price on the Hornady bullets than some of the other brands. I actually shoot the Nosler CC's in my RPR. They aren't the absolute slickest, but the Litz G7 is a respectable .281, and, perhaps most importantly for me, I was able to get my last pack of 1,000 for $192 shipped. I used to shoot .308 Winchester brass, which was cheaper than Hornady, but primer leakage and early brass failure in a couple of chamberings eventually lead me to just give up on it and move to Hornady, mostly because it's always available in my area.

That is one of the reasons i shot alot of hornady, i know pretty much anytime i order bullets they will be around 30-35 bucks a box. What cals did you have issues with win brass? Ive been using it in every thing i can get it for as ive had good luck with it. Hornady brass i use in the CM, Gren, and my .250.

 

[cdb1]

If you like the Tikkas, you can get a heavier barrel Tikka in 6.5 CM with the CTR model:

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241

The price is $880... pretty much a killer deal on an awesome rifle. I have a Tikka CTR non-stainless in .308 that I paid more than that for right when they came out, and it is one of my most accurate rifles. I'd personally take that rifle over the Savage Stealth, especially at that price, but I'm not a huge Savage fan so YMMV.

That's a good deal.

 

[RussellC]

I also saw a Tikka T3 hunter under 600, a little more expensive, but its the only way I know to get just the tikka action, but those guns you mention would be less expensive yet....so many choices, Im sure some clencher bargain will come along and stop all this deciding.

Russellc

That's a good deal.

I've got to admit, pretty sweet! I would like a longer barrel, but 20 inches is longer than anything I have, the stainless look really good! Best all around choice so far, despite the Savage models being a little cheaper, this for the money indeed offers more.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

If you like the Tikkas, you can get a heavier barrel Tikka in 6.5 CM with the CTR model:

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241

The price is $880... pretty much a killer deal on an awesome rifle. I have a Tikka CTR non-stainless in .308 that I paid more than that for right when they came out, and it is one of my most accurate rifles. I'd personally take that rifle over the Savage Stealth, especially at that price, but I'm not a huge Savage fan so YMMV.

Great gun for the money, we may have a winner
The stainless is a great look.

Russellc

 

[cdb1]

I have a rifle in 6.5 caliber, a 6.5x55. It has an incredible cool factor to me and is my favorite rifle. Bottom line though I say it has no advantage over a .308 out to further than I feel comfortable taking a shot(350-400 yards), other than less recoil. I do appreciate that because of a bad shoulder. It is an eight pound rifle without scope and mounts though. A lightweight 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Remington or Swede could easily have as much or more felt recoil than a heavier .308.

 

[tallpaul]

Of course a .223 gun would be minimal recoil, plenty for 300 yards, and I already have lots of bullets and brass. Once proficient, then to the 6.5 creedmoor. For some reason I want that 6.5....

Russellc

Well then ya have your answer... the original question of does the .308 or 6.5cr have an advantage over the other... if you reload the bulletts will tend to be cheaper in the 6.5 For you uses though a .223 would do great and is still worth having around even if/when you add the larger gun... there is no law that you have to choose only one- other than finances

 

[RussellC]

Well then ya have your answer... the original question of does the .308 or 6.5cr have an advantage over the other... if you reload the bulletts will tend to be cheaper in the 6.5 For you uses though a .223 would do great and is still worth having around even if/when you add the larger gun... there is no law that you have to choose only one- other than finances

Agreed. You can never have too many...

Russellc

 

[Gtscotty]

What cals did you have issues with win brass? Ive been using it in every thing i can get it for as ive had good luck with it.

I had some primer leakage in admittedly warm .308 loads , but the main issue was with .270 Win brass. I had one batch of brass that showed incipient case head separation after the first few firings with book loads that didn't show abnormally high velocities, flat primers, or any other pressure signs. I double checked my die settings and fired case measurements and everything seemed to be in order, I haven't had any trouble from the replacement Hornady cases over the course of probably 6 loads. Around the same time I had some of the bad batch of WLR primers that developed pin hole leaks on the shoulders and etched the bolt face on my rifle. Altogether I was just kind of disgusted with Win components and threw them all away. Not exactly scientific or statistically significant, but I haven't bothered with Win cases since, I'm sure the vast majority are fine though, other folks seem to like them.

 

[MCMXI]

My take on this is that for hunting I prefer the .308 Win over the 6.5 CM since I like solid copper bullets and a 165gr, 168gr or 180gr TTSX beats a 127gr LRX or smaller out to 700 yards or so. For my steel targets at 1,050 yards and 1,300 yards I prefer the 6.5 CM. As Gtscotty has pointed out, loading for both is a wash with neither having a significant advantage over the other in terms of cost. I think that the whole recoil argument is kind of ridiculous. A .308 Win shooting a 150gr to 168gr bullet isn't significantly worse than shooting a 130gr to 147gr out of a 6.5 CM. Then again, I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, probably because I don't shoot a rifle like an ATA shotgun as so many seem to do.

 

[LoonWulf]

I had some primer leakage in admittedly warm .308 loads , but the main issue was with .270 Win brass. I had one batch of brass that showed incipient case head separation after the first few firings with book loads that didn't show abnormally high velocities, flat primers, or any other pressure signs. I double checked my die settings and fired case measurements and everything seemed to be in order, I haven't had any trouble from the replacement Hornady cases over the course of probably 6 loads. Around the same time I had some of the bad batch of WLR primers that developed pin hole leaks on the shoulders and etched the bolt face on my rifle. Altogether I was just kind of disgusted with Win components and threw them all away. Not exactly scientific or statistically significant, but I haven't bothered with Win cases since, I'm sure the vast majority are fine though, other folks seem to like them.

Thanks, ive got a pile for my 7 which i run kinda hot so ill keep a better eye on them. I havent had any winchester primers in a while, but i remember reading there were some bad batches of them.