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Old Topic...Lesson Learned?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by ShawnC, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. ShawnC

    ShawnC Member

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    Okay so I was just recently educated on the Zumbo deal in 2007...this isn't about him. What it is about is a question I didn't even realize was ever an issue...

    Are there still people that believe "black rifles" shouldn't be used for hunting? No flaming or judging, but if you feel this way I'm just curious what the justification is.
     
  2. BP44

    BP44 Member

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    Honestly I dont see an advantage for the use of a black rifle when hunting big game, Having said that if its all ya got then go for it. Jim Zumbo had to eat crow after that ordeal:cool: as he should have. I dont think a full auto has any use other than spraying lead and not being accurate in the process but I will support others rights to own them. I guess my point is we cant get so biased that we dont support all of our gun rights, even if you dont see the point in it. Maby the next thing they ban or regulate might be your hobby.
     
  3. ShawnC

    ShawnC Member

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    I agree, but I don't think there is one hunter or gun owner that is ok with hunting full auto.
     
  4. Hardtarget

    Hardtarget Member

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    If the caliber is capable for the chosen game...no problem.
    ten round magazine limit...I'm ok with that. I hunt with a Win. 30-30 with an eight round mag tube. Never load but five. My job is to shoot straight and kill cleanly. The second shot is to anchor my deer.

    Wouldn't surprise me to see an effort to ban single shots because of the slower second shot. :evil: (devils advocate)

    Ethics, caliber selection, bullet construction, hunter capable of correct placement. With those four points what difference does firearm type/style/ function matter?

    Mark
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Sure there are people who believe that. There are people who believe 'most anything.

    There are old traditionalists who have no experience with or understanding of more modern firearm (or who do...) and feel that higher-capacity self-loading rifles derived from or similar to those used for military purposes do not meet their idea of what the sportsman's aesthetic or even, in a fuzzy sort of way, "ethics" aught to be. They feel that a deer, squirrel, duck, Sasquatch, or whatever should fall to a traditional (at least traditional to a particular era) walnut and blued steel sporting firearm. And if that's what they'd prefer to use, that's what they want you to use as well.

    (Never mind that the "traditional sporting" arm chosen by many of them has its ancestry in military arms as well, or that the previous generations would have seen their choices as just as nouveau and unsporting as they see polymer self-loaders to be.)

    And, then there is the corollary to this first group, who feels that modern polymer and stainless self-loaders don't belong in the woods because that will frighten the antis and non-hunters into banning hunting or guns.

    Fortunately for most of us it is becoming harder and harder to locate anyone who still clings to these beliefs, and given another half-generation we should see the end of such blinkered and stifled fogeyism. For the time being, just smile and be tolerant of their intolerance, of course. :)
     
  6. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

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    I went on a man-cation to a time share at a hunting camp in Idaho. They double booked but there was plenty of spare bunks to go around and the other Dad n son seemed nice enough. On the first day of hunting, after everyone made fun of my rimfire the night before, the son went and unloaded a full clip at an elk. He claimed it ran off and he didnt understand how it "got away". I went back up and found it shot 7 Xs bleeting in the scrub brush. I truely was overwhelmed by his attitude of "hey thats my elk", when I brought the cleaned animal back. I offered the skin, head and half the meat, but he claimed it was all his, even though he didnt bring it back. I truely believe novice hunters like this should start with a bolt action, but I must admit that FAL got the job done.
     
  7. Smokey Joe

    Smokey Joe Member

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    Black Rifles...

    Several points here.

    I for one, prefer walnut, blued steel, and a bolt action. That's what I grew up with and learned on. So that's what I mainly hunt with. But some of my hunting partners have used autoloading .308's that "look like a sporting weapon," and I see no difference between using that kind of rifle and using an M1A for hunting--in single mode.

    Automatic firing weapons, IMHO, have no place in the game fields, and for that matter I don't know of any place, anywhere, that their use is legal for hunting. Unsporting, besides the danger of spraying bullets hither and yon, with no regard for a safe backstop, not to mention the ricochets.

    As far as a magazine limit, I can't see the need. After one has shot at a deer (elk, sheep, rabbit, you name it) and missed, the animal is alarmed, and moving fast, and you're never going to get more than 1 or maybe 2 follow-up shots, no matter if your magazine holds 2 or 20 rounds. So what's the big deal?

    Use of a "black rifle" for hunting?? Well, American hunters basically switched from lever-actions to bolt rifles because so many hunters experienced bolts rifles in WWI and II. A bolt rifle was what they learned to use, and that was the action with which they were comfortable. Now, many hunters are coming home from their military experiences with AR-15's, and THAT is the action with which they are comfortable. Why shouldn't they use that type of weapon for hunting? (I mean besides that the things are Jeezly loud on the range, due to the short bbl and the type of muzzle brake that is typical!)

    With regard to Doc 2 Rn's experience, my understanding is that the game belongs to the hunter who "reduces it to posession," that is, actually kills it and tags it(or whatever is the local legality) not to mention field dressing and hauling it out. I have no use whatever for the "hunter" who shoots at an animal and makes any less than an all-out effort to humanely kill it as rapidly as possible. You leave a critter bleeding in the woods, you have abdicated any right to it, and shut up with your claims, lousy sportsman. Dark? Cold? Late? Tired? TOUGH! I truly believe that novice hunters like the one described should start by being educated in hunter ethics, before they even touch a firearm.

    OK, that's off my chest. Now I'll get down off my soapbox.
     
  8. BP44

    BP44 Member

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    Smokey Joe, I am not an advocate for full auto hunting.:D and I'm pretty sure we share many of the same ideas on hunting. Having said that a goof ball kid out on a skid road during deer or elk season with a good old fashioned bolt gun has been known to spray bullets carelessly and gut shoot anything in sight:uhoh: I feel it depends on the person not the weapon and in the end it comes down to morals/ethics and judgement.

    I am simply trying to point out the "one link out of a dogs chain" theory with gun control and the fact that "sportsman" are actively involved when it comes to gun rights, The good and the bad.

    I guess I went on the ''Zumbo'' angle of the post:eek: I use an old pre 64 win for my blacktails and elk and still love shooting the doubles in the duck blind, but I dont care what the next guy uses as long as it works for him and more importantly the critter he is after. I have been know to take the AR's out after winter coyotes and for that they are great as I need follow up shots and alot of 'em as they seem to come in groups of two to three this time of year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  9. blume357@bellsouth.net

    blume357@bellsouth.net Member

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    we can always take this to extremes... even though I grew up on a farm and kind of hunted up until I was 18 and left home, I have no desire to kill small or even large critters and really can't see why others do... with that said, I respect others doing this and would never speak against their right.... speaking of rights... the whole gun issue is about that... the right to protect yourself, your family, your property and the same of others who can't.. nothing to do with hunting. Full auto is silly, unless you have a couple hundred commies coming at you... but still they should have never been regulated let alone restricted (pre 1986 only)....
     
  10. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    I gave up hunting many years ago so I'm not really "in the loop." Sounds like some people are still trying to substitute fire power for skill.

    An EBR semi-auto in .308 sounds like just the ticket for hunting deer and elk in rough, brushy terrain. It would be short, light, and easy to handle just like a lever carbine. I'll leave the question of mag capacity for hunting to people who are better informed. However, unethical slob hunters can't be cured by legislation.Trying to ban EBR's would probably result in a ban on Browning,Remington, Benelli,etc; sporting rifles.
     
  11. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Sure there is......but this is America and they are free to have a opinion and to freely express it. I remember when compound bows first came on the market and how many folks snibbled about those "new fangled contraptions". Now they are the standard and recurves and longbows are the exception. I remember seeing my first EBR in the woods some 20 years ago. While the gun caught my eye and seemed outta place at the time, it was the goofus using it that was the scarey part. Since they were legal to use, it made no difference to me. It still doesn't. Still, many of those that use them for hunting fit the profile of the first hunter I ever saw with one. Maybe that's what Zumbo meant, eh?
     
  12. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    How in the hell did a discussion of "black rifles" for hunting turn to using full auto??
     
  13. ShawnC

    ShawnC Member

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    I think this is part of the problem. Someone say "black rifle" or "military style" and automatically the conversation jumps to "full auto".
    Perhaps I should have worded the question differently, as I am aware that people don't care for AR's and AK's (honestly, other than the AR 10, I'm not much of fan either) but I don't think they should be banned from the woods, and I don't think they are "Terrorist Weapons".
    Is the argument really against only certain kinds of people would choose to use this type of weapon, and those types of people would be undesirable? Because I go to the shooting range with those people never saw a difference between them and any other hunters. This isn't about 2A being related to hunting, it's about all gun owners looking out for each other.
     
  14. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    3 round burst would be perfect IMO.
    Especially since 223 is such a small calibre, 3 of em makes what.. .669 cal?
    A lot more than the .23 restriction :D
     
  15. 22lr

    22lr Member

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    I left Outdoorlife over the issue. They canned a great writer, with great talent because the gun community bullied them. I love gun owners, but seriously, this is still America and we are all allowed to have different opinions. I got my first subscription to Outdoorlife when I was 14 and saved up my money from cutting the neighbors grass to buy it, his articles were the first things I would read. His hunting trips, his rifle reviews and his writing style just made for articles that were enjoyable to read. I am still bitter about the tactical guys who got all butt hurt and bullied him out. To me it shows the ultimate lack of class when you take a man like Zumbo, and turn him into the villain.

    I love my AR, my Galil, my decked out 10/22s and my tactical shotguns. But I also like my custom built Mauser actions. I hunt with bolt actions because I prefer bolt actions. Nothing against the guys who use ARs, but come on, we can coexist. Just because I (or Jim Zumbo) dont like hunting with ARs is no reason to raise all heck over the issue. I think the guys who take tactical carbine classes are silly and wasting money, but id never say they were wrong for doing so, its just not my cup of tea.

    But ya back to the OPs questions. I dont like hunting with ARs. Ive done it, I just would rather have a bolt action.
     
  16. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    That was a triumph. A lot of people needed to see that happen. I feel badly for poor Jim, as he was only the tool used to build something great. But, when you make your bed, sometimes you do have to lie down in it.

    (As my favorite of Despair.com's demotivational posters says, "It may be that your purpose in life is only to serve as a warning to others." http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html)

    Yup, and this is still America where nothing says you'll be immune from the results of your words or actions. Jim made a deliberate choice. He attacked (not disagreed with, ATTACKED) the beliefs and choices of others and used his bully pulpit as a public figure to make a stand for something. Something destructive. Something hurtful. Something wrong, that should not be. Unfortunately for him -- but fortunately for everyone else -- the tide had finally turned against foes in the hunting garb of "friends" who would try to hurt the rest of us in that way.

    I'm afraid you don't remember clearly what ol' Jim said.

    Let me refresh your memory:

    That's not expressing a personal preference to use walnut & blued steel when out butchering bambi. That's the dying howl of the snob hunter who would sell other gun owners out at the polls, ridicule them in the field, and declare the most popular firearm in America a "terrorist rifle."

    He knew what he was doing. He took a chance on standing up for discrimination and denigration of others for some of the most blinkered, stupid, and illogical reasons known to man. He sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. Good for him.

    I harbor no personal feelings against the man. But his words and beliefs on this matter are anathema. I'm sorry to see him hurt by the response he bought for himself. But I'm so very proud of "US" for making such a strong statement of solidarity and the power of our own beliefs.

    We often wonder if we're making any impact and if any of the powerful or influential know or care what us in the "silent majority" really believe. That week, folks all over the world knew that Americans will be keeping their "assault rifles" thank-you-very-much. It was a GREAT day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  17. BP44

    BP44 Member

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    Sam1911, Thanks for putting words togeather that I simply couldnt.

    "Are there still people that believe "black rifles" shouldn't be used for hunting? No flaming or judging, but if you feel this way I'm just curious what the justification is"

    I guess Full auto came up as a justification, it is viewed by the sheep and even sportsman as evil and useless much like Zumbo described the black rifles.

    I am sorry if I took this post of topic I was looking to much into what Mr.Zumbo had said and to me gun rights and the topic of discussion are related.
     
  18. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    It wasn't just the "tactical guys" either, don't fool yourself by blaming just one group for the reaction. I own one AR clone I bought for the heck of it to give it a chance and it's still my least favorite gun.

    I don't feel butt hurt, but you sound like you are.

    John
     
  19. BP44

    BP44 Member

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    Naaa, not butt hurt I just didnt want to take you thread off topic any more than I already did.:D
     
  20. 22lr

    22lr Member

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    Im to lazy to type it all out myself, so ill just reference the Wikipedia article on the incident.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Zumbo

    And his letter to the Senate about his statement that was read on the Senate floor.

    http://www.nraila.org/news/read/inthenews.aspx?id=9177

    A quote in that letter

    And on his website he has this to say.


    I think this explanation is better than what I could do. An old man got pissed off about ARs in hunting, cooled off and realized what he had just said. It happens, I just don't think he needed to be fired over it. What he said in the blog post was wrong, but I cant think of anything else he could have done to apologize to gun owners. If he had just said "o ya, about that, my bad" then of course there would be an issue. But he has done everything humanly possible to recant his statement and apologize to gun owners and in my eyes its recanted.
     
  21. 22lr

    22lr Member

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    I guess I said all that to say differing opinions are what make the firearms community great. It just seems the minority is always suppressed. The assault rifle minority was suppressed for a while, and now the tables have turned. Either way its wrong and a happy median could easily be reached if each side understood the other.
     
  22. ShawnC

    ShawnC Member

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    I haven't read anything by him recently, and it sounds like he made amends. But it was more than just his opinion. Antis used that blog to beat pro 2A's over the head, and that was the real damage. Luckily we rose up above it, and it seems to have had no lasting effect.
    I kind of knew it would veer off into nailing him again, but that wasn't my intention with my OP. Really, what I wanted to know is, is there still a line between traditional hunters and another part of the shooting community that keeps a significant amount of one side basically blowing off the other side when it comes to 2A. Are there still a significant amount of the hunting community that says "They can have those 'assault rifles' as long as they leave my hunting rifle alone". If that is your attitude, and maybe we're all over that now, then what is the difference between shooting a .308 from an AR 10, or a Remington 700? I am a hunter, and haven't met anyone like this, but if it is a problem, hopefully we can change some minds here and keep the 2A community on the same page.

    Edit: I just read his letter to congress in 2007, and it was enough for me to forgive him his digression.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  23. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    It is not so simple. The good folks who sometimes chose to shoot modern design autoloading rifles were REpressed and were denigrated and attacked. Not just by Jim, and certainly not first by him. But he was loud and proud about it. He'd obviously been putting a lot of thought into it. And decided to hurt the "fraternity" he claimed to speak for rather than unify it.

    The tables have turned? No. No, not really. Now that the my-old-time-way-or-the-highway crowd has been effectively broken, you're not seeing public statements talking about how we aught to kick those useless old broken down lever guns and bolt rifles out of the field, or how "we" have no need for "those" folks in our ranks. We are healthier now, smarter, wiser for having policed our ranks. The tables haven't turned, so now there's a new master in town. No, we've excised a cancer and taken measures to make the body whole.
     
  24. ShawnC

    ShawnC Member

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    If this is the prevailing attitude, then I would say "Lesson Learned." :)
     
  25. Patriotme

    Patriotme Member

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    I know long time hunters that think AR's are all full auto. They just don't know any better or have any first hand experience so they believe what they see on TV. I offer to let new shooters try my AR when I take them to the range. It's worth a box of Wolf to educate another voter, gun enthusiast and future gun owner.
     
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