Older .308 Winchester accuracy

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mokin

mokin

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This may be a little long.....

A few years back I inherited my Grandpa's .308. It's a Western Field Model 767. Some basic research turned up that it was made by Mossberg for sale by Montgomery Ward way back in the day. According to family lore, it was purchased in the early half of the 60s and never really shot it. That kind of puts the rifle back to the early days of the .308. I guess Grandpa got it sighted in, bagged a deer with it, and called it good. When I got the rifle I was told it had probably not been shot over a hundred times. I cleaned it a little, took it out and ran a couple boxes through it just for fun. A little later I put a $300.00 Leupold on it and kept practicing. I tried mostly "economical" Winchester, Remington, and Federal ammunition but couldn't get the groups under about three inches at 100 yards. I also tried various handloads with similar results. Bullet weights varied between 147 and 168 grains. After shooting other rifles with much better results it has become a little frustrating....

Today I had a breakthrough! I was using Nosler Trophy Grade 165 grain factory loads and managed to shoot a one inch three round group. The thing is, I'm a better shot than that. Now I'm wondering, what am I missing? I've put between 150 and 200 rounds downrange with it at this point. It seems to like heavier bullets over lighter ones. Rifling twist is 1:13.

My first inclination is to buy a couple more boxes of mentioned ammo and try some more but at $2.00 a pop that could get expensive. I'm ok with that and I'd end up with good brass. But is it the right thing to do? If you've stuck with me this far, thanks. What, in the opinion of this forum, could I do to increase my chances of obtaining similar results? Heavier bullets? Is it the ammo? Is this rifle just a picky eater and I've about managed to squeeze all the performance it's capable of out of it?
 
Do you handload? IF you do, try some loads with either Sierra 168 gr Matchkings or Nosler 168 gr Custom Competition bullets and 42.5 gr of IMR-4064. I use Federal 210 primers, but CCI-200's seem to work as well.
If you don't handload, then I suggest trying some Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr loads. They are pretty much the factory version of the handload mentioned. If you can find some Federal American Eagle 168 OTM ammo, it is almost as good as the Gold Medal Match ammo, but significantly less expensive. If your .308 won't group with that handload or one of those factory loads, start checking your scope or mounts or bedding of the stock because most .308 Win. will shoot those loads well.
 
A one inch, three shot group at 100 with that rifle seems pretty good.

Might not be able to squeeze too much more blood outta that turnip.

If you are an accuracy fiend, might be time to try something else.
 
First thing I would do is check to see if it is properly stocked. Might have a problem that could be easily corrected.

Lafitte
 
If you can consistently reproduce the 1 inch group with that load, you might be done. Even with a more modern low end rifle that's pretty good. Sure some low end rifles do better , but there are plenty of the legendary pre 64 Winchester 70's that shoot an inch.
 
A (as in one) 1" group does not make a rifle. Heck I can pull of A 1" 3 shot group with an iron sighted Mosin at 100 yds on occasion ... Just DONT shoot that 4th round, Lol.
On a rifle that old and an inexpensive version at that I'd look at stock/reciever fit. I doubt no matter what you do, you'll end up with a TRUE Sub-MOA rifle.
 
I second the choice of Federal American Eagle 168 OTM as a test. I find it as good as Federal Gold Medal Match and about $5 cheaper per box.

How is the trigger on that rifle?
 
The rifle made by Mossberg as the Model 800A was also sold in a lesser version to Wards Western Field as the Model 767. Like similar bolt action rifles you can dissemble and reassemble the rifle and the point of impact may change. I would dissemble the rifle and paint the barrel bottom from the lug forward with dykem blue layout fluid and reassemble the rifle. Disassemble the rifle again and look for rub marks on the wood in the barrel channel where there is barrel rub. Remove any high spots in the channel. There are tools to do this but sand paper on a wood dowel works. With the high spots remover reassemble the rifle and try torquing at a few different torque settings, I have no idea what the action screws should be torqued to. A call to Mossberg may help. I want to guess around 45 - 50 inch pounds but that is pure guess. Anyway, looking for high spots in the barrel channel and correctly torquing the action screws may really tighten the groups and requires little effort.

Ron
 
Thanks for the replies. Y'all have given me some things to think about.

Do you handload? IF you do, try some loads with either Sierra 168 gr Matchkings or Nosler 168 gr Custom Competition bullets and 42.5 gr of IMR-4064. I use Federal 210 primers, but CCI-200's seem to work as well.
Click to expand...

I do handload so I'll give that a try. So far, I've been using bullets more suitable for hunting though. Your suggestion also triggered a memory of a conversation with a benchrest shooter who was comparing primers and size groups. Maybe I'll try something other than CCI-200's.

First thing I would do is check to see if it is properly stocked. Might have a problem that could be easily corrected.
Click to expand...

Like similar bolt action rifles you can dissemble and reassemble the rifle and the point of impact may change. I would dissemble the rifle and paint the barrel bottom from the lug forward with dykem blue layout fluid and reassemble the rifle. Disassemble the rifle again and look for rub marks on the wood in the barrel channel where there is barrel rub. Remove any high spots in the channel. There are tools to do this but sand paper on a wood dowel works. With the high spots remover reassemble the rifle and try torquing at a few different torque settings, I have no idea what the action screws should be torqued to. A call to Mossberg may help. I want to guess around 45 - 50 inch pounds but that is pure guess. Anyway, looking for high spots in the barrel channel and correctly torquing the action screws may really tighten the groups and requires little effort.
Click to expand...

I checked the stock when I cleaned it the first time and it looked pretty good. I can slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock down to the action. I was wondering about the torque on the screws though. If the different loads don't show improvement, I'll go there.

A (as in one) 1" group does not make a rifle. Heck I can pull of A 1" 3 shot group with an iron sighted Mosin at 100 yds on occasion ... Just DONT shoot that 4th round, Lol
Click to expand...

You got that right. I have a Finnish M-39 (1944) and a No 1 Mk III (1918) that can do that. That's why I expect more from this rifle.

About that fourth round... Here's a picture of today's target. That's twenty shots. The last five were an attempt at a group. Four made it. One didn't....

I was shooting 150 grain Sierra SBTs (no. 2125) on top of 40.7 grains of IMR 3031.
 

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I'd start on the lower third of the powder charge range with some 125 to 130 grain bullets. Work up from there; probably shoot them pretty well...
 
I own a 308 rifle that will only shoot 180 to 200 grain bullets. Not ideal for the 308. BUT it will shoot a 1/3 inch group with 200 grain flat based bullets, so that is what I load.

As stated above, it may well be a stock problem of even a stock barrel channel issue. How about some photos....???
 
I had a customer several years ago with a Mossberg 800 that would not shoot well. First thing I found was the front sight mounting screw hole was drilled too deep and had broken into the bore, leaving a burr. Even after cutting and recrowning and a glass bed job, the rifle would not shoot tight groups consistently, more on the order of 1 1/2" to 2". That might be the best yours will do.
 
Just a guess.

Nosler makes a nice 125 grain Ballistic tip that may work better in that 1-13 twist.

I already know what most will say, but, That 125 Nosler would take most any deer at reasonable ranges. It really works nice for Woodchucks too.
 
I love those old Sears, Wards, Western Auto, A&P, Penny's etc versions of classic manufacturer's rifles. I just love 'em!

But so many of them don't shoot. That's why they are Wards, Penny's, Piggly Wiggly, etc.


You can restock the rifle, remount the Leupold, handload ten thousand rounds with premium bullets, buy just boat loads
of premium match-grade ammo, and shoot the snot out of that barrel until you final get reliable 2.5" groups EVERY TIME.

Congratulations. 2.5 inches. Let's not make fun, that is a huge difference over 3.5 inches.




Or, you can cherish grandpa's 308 and (some day!) even bag a deer with it! He will be so proud you'll hear him brag from all the way up in Heaven!

Then you put it away and shoot it once every 5 years until the next generation needs to bag a deer.

One day, you will be bragging from your seat up on High. That's what those old rifles were made for. Not benchrest.



But if everyone on this excellent Forum wishes to bash me as ignorant and stupid, I will accept it. :)
 
mokin said:
This may be a little long.....

A few years back I inherited my Grandpa's .308. It's a Western Field Model 767. Some basic research turned up that it was made by Mossberg for sale by Montgomery Ward way back in the day. According to family lore, it was purchased in the early half of the 60s and never really shot it. That kind of puts the rifle back to the early days of the .308. I guess Grandpa got it sighted in, bagged a deer with it, and called it good. When I got the rifle I was told it had probably not been shot over a hundred times. I cleaned it a little, took it out and ran a couple boxes through it just for fun. A little later I put a $300.00 Leupold on it and kept practicing. I tried mostly "economical" Winchester, Remington, and Federal ammunition but couldn't get the groups under about three inches at 100 yards. I also tried various handloads with similar results. Bullet weights varied between 147 and 168 grains. After shooting other rifles with much better results it has become a little frustrating....

Today I had a breakthrough! I was using Nosler Trophy Grade 165 grain factory loads and managed to shoot a one inch three round group. The thing is, I'm a better shot than that. Now I'm wondering, what am I missing? I've put between 150 and 200 rounds downrange with it at this point. It seems to like heavier bullets over lighter ones. Rifling twist is 1:13.

My first inclination is to buy a couple more boxes of mentioned ammo and try some more but at $2.00 a pop that could get expensive. I'm ok with that and I'd end up with good brass. But is it the right thing to do? If you've stuck with me this far, thanks. What, in the opinion of this forum, could I do to increase my chances of obtaining similar results? Heavier bullets? Is it the ammo? Is this rifle just a picky eater and I've about managed to squeeze all the performance it's capable of out of it?
Click to expand...
You've got it down to 1 MOA, which is considered very good for a rifle of that era. Keep in mind that off-the-shelf rifles back then were not nearly as good as what we have now. It's not like you can buy a Savage nowadays and have a 1 MOA or better guarantee out of the box. 1 MOA should be considered excellent for that rifle.

Realize, as well, that it was a budget rifle from a more budget brand; back then, Winchester and Remington dominated. Even today, Mossberg is considered lower end compared to some of the other big manufacturers.

Basically, the rifle is a good shooter when fed ammo it likes, and you should accept that and leave it as is. Don't try to turn it into something it's not. It's a 50+ year old family heirloom, not a Ruger Precision Rifle.
 
You said to mokin--

"Basically, the rifle is a good shooter when fed ammo it likes, and you should accept that and leave it as is. Don't try to turn it into something it's not. It's a 50+ year old family heirloom, not a Ruger Precision Rifle."

I agree. Hey, I shoot an old 1930's era Mauser in 7.62! What the heck, it is what it is and I have fun with it! I love that caliber and can shoot better than Elmer Fudd with it! I enjoy trying to best myself and the gun's limitations each time I go out shooting. Sure I can bag game with it. Done that. I try to push the performance for what it is, not compare it to my Ruger. I don't need a 1 MOA to bring home a hog or a deer. And I can have fun with a 3 MOA piece of history that is real cheap to buy and shoot.

New precision guns are awesome. But they also take away some of the challenge--and some of the surprise! IMHO.

In any case, mokin, enjoy what you are doing, whether it be improving the gun, the hand loading, the shooting technique, or the time at the range or in the field.
 
Outs grandpa's rifle. Does it need to do more? Sink slot of money into it, make it your rifle, or leave it on the wall as grandpa's gun. Your call. Some day I may have to make that call I'd I'm lucky/unlucky enough. First one didn't have guns that I saw.
 
As others have said, for a rebranded Mossberg of that era, you are doing excellent.
 
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