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On Fighting Shotguns....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Dave,

    I've been experimenting with the clones for a couple of years now, with the Pardners being the latest of the bunch. So far I like the Pardner pumps a lot. Of course, it'll be another 40 years or so before I'll really know if they are as durable as the originals, and I doubt I'll last long enough to find out for myself. :D

    The most recent Pardner I bought in like new used condition is propped in the corner behind me right now. I've put on a Streamlight magazine tube mount light rail (#69903, IIRC) for a detachable weaponlight - there's a TLR-1 LED on the way to go on it. And I ordered a 4-round Sidesaddle for it too. I had to straighten out the forearm a little bit, it wasn't centered well and was rubbing on the left side of the barrel. But that only took a couple of minutes and was no problem. Other than that, everything seems good to go with it. I field stripped it and gave it a good cleaning when I got it, there was still factory shipping preservative in it. After enough time on the range, it is likely to take its place as one of the 'house guns' here - the rest are all 870s of various types and vintages. And that's as good an endorsement as anything gets.
     
  2. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Like Lee said.
     
  3. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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  4. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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    In the end, I went with Lee's original advice - found (finally) a barrel that wasn't within $50 of the delivered & FFL transfer fee price of an entire NEF/H&R/Whatever they're naming it Pardner Protector.

    I'll put the 18" barrel on my 870 12-gauge, along with one of those buttstock shell holder sleves from Allen. 00 Buck will be the load.

    I might get a light and a bracket later, once I figure out and get comfortable with the new kit.

    The long barrel will be cleaned, oiled and kept in a sleeve to be brought out from time to time to shoot at clays.

    Thanks everybody for the advice (especially Lee).
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  5. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Hope it works out like you want it to, Dave. And I hope you never need it.

    But get used to using it under pressure, just in case you ever need to. If you can swing a full blown shotgun class, Louis Awerbuck is still the shotgun Yoda as far as I'm concerned. Randy Cain is very good, as is Clint Smith, John Farnam and Tom Givens. The thing about shotgun guys is that there are a lot of local instructors who can teach a very creditable class on running a defensive shotgun, who will never have the national/international reputation that short list has. But finding out about the local guys is more difficult. With the short list folks, there's no doubt what you are getting, and most of them travel and teach classes all over the country.

    Stay Safe,

    lpl
     
  6. Highgate

    Highgate Member

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    Hi,

    I'm in the UK where we can have a maximum SG mag capacity of TWO cartridges i.e. three total.

    I only shoot foxes, to protect the chickens on our small farm.

    Guns are almost banned here but I obtained a shotgun licence about two years ago.

    I bought a 870 12 ga pump action and an A5 Browning 3" magnum 12 ga semi-auto. Both full choke with 28" barrels.

    I soon learned a few things:

    * slings are a pain

    * heavy guns such as the A5 are a pain

    * you need to go out into the field in rain and gloom for an hour or so at a time to REALLY find how the gun suits you

    * autos & pump actions are essentially unsafe - I now see why they are banned from public shooting sites in the UK ... double barrels only permitted.

    * Autos are fussy about ammo - they sulk and jam at the first opportunity

    * Foxes are FAST and cunning - in my orchard you need to be holding the gun up, cocked and loaded with the safety off to have any chance of a good shot. A very tiring posture to maintain as you walk around!

    * Crossing fences with loaded shotguns can be dangerous

    * An unloaded weapon CAN in fact be loaded!

    * You need to find a brand and size of ammo that suits you and your gun - and stick to it! Buy it by the case!

    * Add-ons might seem cool & useful - but the only add-on I have kept is an ammo saddle ... don't forget that we have just two shots in the mag here.

    * 00 buckshot is too lethal for UK field use - the pattern fails early so you miss the target but the lethal lumps of lead keep going on and on ...

    * You can adapt to heavy recoil - but it takes weeks rather than minutes or hours

    Summary: I started off with magnum-itis and gadget-itis. A typical male techie approach to a new hobby!

    However I now simply use the 870, no sling, always loaded with 42 gr US BB semi-magnum (hard to find in the UK - we have different pellet sizes).
    Good knockdown, large number of pellets, long range, short unfired case so I can fit two in the mag ... but killer recoil.

    I simply practice a lot so I whatever I aim at I can usually hit.

    I started off pining for a black plastic quasi-military supergun firing 65 gram tungsten loads ... but some real life experience has shown me that practising a lot in the dark, cold & wet (the UK!) with a plain 870 firing a big handful of BB is a far more realistic route.
     
  7. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Thanks for posting Highgate. I was stationed in Essex for a while in the 60s. I comprehend "dark,cold and wet".

    A couple things about your few things.....

    Autos and Pumps are NOT inherently unsafe, but they do require more training and attention.

    Foxes in the UK, unless they all have gone on Steroids since I was last there, run elss than 10 lbs. Before I'd use those loads, I'd go with something like 1 1/4 oz of 4s.

    And A5s are great for when you do not have to carry them a lot.
     
  8. Highgate

    Highgate Member

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    >> Foxes in the UK, unless they all have gone on Steroids since I was last there, run less than 10 lbs. Before I'd use those loads, I'd go with something like 1 1/4 oz of 4s.

    I'm really a rifle shooter but I can't face the legal paperwork needed to get a licence in the UK ... the shotgun licence application is stringent enough!

    I think that this has made me keener on the bigger evil cartridges with full choke rather than the 'normal' cartridges.

    I have tried all sorts of cartridges sizes and loads - but I only started having fun when I discovered semi-magnums!

    A lot of farmers around here seem to favour the SAGA 2.75" semi-magnum 44g in a US size which must be close to #4 ... maybe a tad heavier. The recoil is also heavy with this one - but it certainly does the business!

    I started with the excellent SAGA round, but I finally settled on the US BB size for a variety of techie reasons :
    * A UK study on shooting foxes showed that the UK BB (US #1) was a tad too weak and the UK AAA (#T) had too few pellets. The US BB fits fight in between those two sizes.
    * The US BB has a surprisingly long range.
    * US BB comes in star crimp cases so I can fit two in the UK restricted capacity magazine. AAA (#T) only comes in a longer RTO case so only one will fit in the mag.
    * US BB can be loaded up to around 44g in a 2.75" case - but AAA (#T) is limited to 36g due to pellet packing issues.
    * I have done some computer analysis which shows that US BB lies at the optimum point where penetration and pattern fail together. Any bigger, and the pattern fails but the pellets are still dangerous. Any smaller and the pellets run out of steam before the pattern fails.

    Based on my research I then imported some US BB into the UK. To be frank I expected to be disappointed - practice never lives up to the theory.

    However in this case I was very surprised to find that US BB suits my needs 110%. Long range, heavy knockdown, accurate (after much practice).

    The downsides? A bit expensive, plastic wads, heavy recoil, rather high chamber pressures. I have now got used to the heavy recoil so I can shoot straight without flinching ... but the recoil broke the receiver mechanism of a single barrel I was using.

    In a different legal world I would use a rifle - but this shotgun combination is the closest I can get to having serious shooting fun!

    (I have tried 50gm UK BB in a 3" magnum ... not good : the pattern failed spectacularly. The 'boom' is however impressively stupendous! I might stupidly consider taking a 2.75" shot without ear defenders ... but a 3" magnum? No way!)
     
  9. jump

    jump Member

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    870 shooting 5's

    Someone a little while ago wanted to know what kicks gobbling thunder to use shooting 5's 665 works great with 5's
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
  10. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    This thread IS about fighting shotguns. Please post a new thread further down....
     
  11. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    I no longer have a shotgun. It was my fighting/HD/zombies/whatever but I felt as though a rifle would do everything I would want a shotgun to do but more. I'm just not a shotgun guy really.
     
  12. bassdogs

    bassdogs Member

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    What ever floats your boat. If you are a rifle guy, I say what the hey! Personally I don't see the use for an AR or AK in anything but a ZHtF Zombie attack. My simple 870 tactical meets all my needs; firepower, knockdown power, varity of ammo choices, multi uses, cost to own and shoot.

    My vote is the 870 but have to throw in for all the simple, basic, short barrel pumps. Only your ego needs anything more.
     
  13. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    5.56 and 5.45 penetrate less walls then buckshot so it certainly has a valid use in Home Defense. I'll get another 870 and 1100 someday but that day is not today.
     
  14. Highgate

    Highgate Member

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    Interesting point. A few years back I saw a post on a survivalist board, where all sorts of exotic firearms were being discussed.

    One poster then said something like "Hey, I have just an 870 with 400 rounds of 00 buckshot. If I need to fire that many I'll be dead anyway."

    A fairly valid point? If you need more than a couple of shots from a shotgun when TSHTF then maybe you should be thinking of hiding or running?

    No individual can expect to defeat a truckload of armed gangsters ... even if the defender has the latest wizzo rifle available.
     
  15. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I will join the shotgun owning world next week. I will be using a CZ 712 Utility autoloader with extended mag and ALS adjustable stock. I haven't owned a shotgun in YEARS, so this will be interesting to say the least. After watching the new generation of 712 go through a few thousand rounds without a glitch in testing with Tom Knapp, I feel confident it will work well as HD and maybe even 3 gun if I can EVER find a match close by. Reviews and pics posted when it get's into my hot little hands. :)
     
  16. spaniel

    spaniel Member

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    I'm still curious why pumps and semi-autos are inherently unsafe....
     
  17. bassdogs

    bassdogs Member

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    They aren't, but maybe some of the shooters are because they are too focused on multi shots. Not a fan of auto loaders, but whatever floats your boat on that one. A pump is only going to cycle one shell until you rack another round. The typical OU is just like an auto, 2 trigger pulls and 2 shots, so I'm thinking the UK has this one wrong.

    My 870 18" now carries 2 #4 buck followed by 5 OO buck with whatever I feel like in the stock sleeve. Main practice is the quick cycle motion and the reload after a couple of rounds. The point of aim is pretty much a no brainer at 25 yards or less.
     
  18. azgun

    azgun Member

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    The best recipe in my opinion is reliable, fast, 18"-20", decent light, and 6-8 capacity, bead sight, pump action
     
  19. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

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    ..................................../////////////////////////////////
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  20. memphismark

    memphismark Member

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    That's an interesting point. I do keep 2 birdshot shells in my 2 side saddles to 'compliment' my 00 buck. memphismark
     
  21. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I don't think that's what he meant. I could be wrong, but I believe that rcmodel also advocates the use of some arrangement of buckshot/slugs for HD. What rc probably meant was that the guy who spends years shooting at moving targets every weekend is going to be a much better shooter regardless of what gun he has when compared to a guy who spends all his money on cool looking junk to hang on his gun.

    Kinda why I think if the zombie apocalypse ever does come, the safest place would be at a trap/skeet range with a bunch of ATA shooters. They always have a lot of ammo on hand and when you're used to hitting small 6" disks flying on their side at 45 mph, headshots are easy.

    Bird shot in a HD shotgun is a liability unless your expected intruder is winged, feathered, and has webbed feet.
     
  22. IMTHDUKE

    IMTHDUKE Member

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    Have the Stoeger Double Defense coach sxs 12ga with ported barrels and light on rail. Has green fiber optic sight. Have the Mossberg 930spx coming next week. That should hold down the fort till John Wayne arrives/;)
     
  23. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

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    The 16ga Ithaca 37 'Deerslayer' is perfect all around gun. It would make fine deer shotgun, skeet gun, grouse gun and riot gun. Now you too know the secret.
     
  24. Sniper 51

    Sniper 51 Member

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    On Fighting Shotguns

    Dave M.

    Just recently purchased an Ithaca 37 featherweight, very rough but at the gunsmith now. He says internally it's gonna make a nice one. It's an older model with the slam fire feature. I have an 870 with 2 barrels, one being 20 inches. My question, What is your recommendation for this 26 inch barrel. Should I leave it alone or cut it down? I'm thinking it might be a little long for a fighting shotgun but wonder if I will regret just cutting it off.
    Sniper 51
     
  25. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    It's a whole 1.5" longer than the legal Fed minimum.

    One of my HD 870s has a 20" barrel. Works very, very well.

    Contrary to a lot of Netmyth, a shotgun's effectiveness has little to do with OA length.

    A 20" barreled vintage 37 strikes me as a nigh perfect HD tool...
     

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