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On Fighting Shotguns....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    RCMODEL

    You talkin about me pilgrim? 72.5 YOA, 6 lbs of Shotgun, 210 lbs of me!
     
  2. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    I don't have to think very hard to come up with a good long list of Septegenerians I wouldn't want shooting at me with their bird guns, or anything else for that matter.

    Tom Held isn't quite that old, but I watched him grind clays into smoke like a machine today with a Model 21 that handled like a quail gun.

    Doug H of the Geezers shot a 23/25 at Chinese Trap today with a Model 12, and some of those targets broke very close to the house.
     
  3. JNewell

    JNewell Member

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  4. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Not out of place, J. Thanks.....
     
  5. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    Earlier in this thread there was some mention of double guns as viable "fighting shotguns" even today. Historically, of course, they were THE close range weapon.

    Lighter weight and shorter overall length for a given barrel length are two pluses for the double, with of course the two shot limit a potentially big minus.

    Could someone with more knowledge and experience than me (which would be almost anyone) offer some comments on the real world pros and cons of using a double gun as fighting shotgun? Maybe some tips on how to reduce the disadvantages and really apply the advantages? Anything particualr to look for in choosing a double gun with defensive use in mind?

    Thanks!
     
  6. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    I won't claim to either be particularly knowledgeable or experienced but I'll chime in here to say (as has been said before) "It's the Indian, not the arrow". There are some old fa.., excuse me, "seasoned gentlemen" I sure wouldn't want standing against me with a double in their hands even if I had a GE minigun.

    Familiarity with your particular tool and how to run it will overcome whatever disadvantages it may have.

    This is where Dave will tell you to Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat.

    Excellent advice.

    As to which double. Well one that fits you and goes bang when it needs to. :D.
     
  7. DMR

    DMR Member

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    You could see if you can turn up either of these from the Mr. Ayoob, himself or Law & Orders Publisher. They are rather dated, 1975, but are probably the last referance you will find:

    NCJRS Library collection Abstract:
    DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN IN POLICE WORK, PART 1, NCJ 018601. M F AYOOB; LAW AND ORDER, 23, 4, (APRIL 1975), 74-77. (4 pages).

    DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN IN POLICE WORK, PART 2, NCJ 019358. M AYOOB; LAW AND ORDER, 23, 5, (MAY 1975), 44, 46-47, 50. (4 pages).

    THE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN IS MORE EASILY OPERATED THAN SLIDE ACTION OR AUTOLOADING SHOTGUNS WHEN THE OFFICER USING IT HANDLES HEAVY FIREPOWER ONLY OCCASIONALLY AND HAS NOT RECEIVED INTENSIVE SHOTGUN TRAINING.
    Abstract: THE AUTHOR CONTENDS THAT ALTHOUGH CONSIDERED OBSOLETE FOR POLICE COMBAT PURPOSES, THE DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN IS STILL BEING USED. A DISCUSSION OF THE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUNS CONCLUDES THAT EVEN THOUGH THE SLIDE ACTION SHOTGUN HAS A SAFER PORTABILITY. CAN BE RELOADED MORE QUICKLY AND EASILY, AND HAS A LESS LIMITED SHOT CAPACITY, THE 'DOUBLE GUN' HAS A VERY SIGNIFICANT PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT AND ALSO INSTANT STOPPING POWER. THE DIFFERENT DOUBLE SHOTGUNS AVAILABLE FOR POLICE USE ARE ALSO DISCUSSED.

    I am looking for a copy myself. I will most likly then add a Stoger Condor 20" O/U and a SxS coach gun to my referance guns.
     
  8. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    I've had urges for one of those Stoegor Condor "Outback" models myself here lately.

    The one that is I believe 20" and has rudimentary iron sights on top??

    I handled one at Gander Mountain awhile back and was pleased with it's balance.
     
  9. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Re doubles as fighting shotguns....

    Some B-more narcs I knew used Savage 311s with 20" barrels as raid guns. The premise was that they handled very fast, and speed was crucial. With a squad on hand, a pump or semi auto with more shots wasn't that necessary.

    If I were equipping with a SxS, I'd want ejectors instead of extractors for faster reloading, a big bead for fast pickup and two triggers.

    I'd also establish which barrel worked best with slugs and do some fast COFs with a Buck And Ball loading, say slug in one barrel and 00 in t'other.

    Read the old thread on a Lupara for some ideas.....
     
  10. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    Thanks, Dave McCracken, I did go back and read the Lupara threads. I have my eye on one of those Stoeger Condor Outback O/Us - hammerless, single trigger, extractors, safety, screw-in chokes. Seems like a great all-around gun - not ideal for any one purpose, but it will do just about any job from hunting birds, small or large game, backyard skeet or home defense. Thoughts?
     
  11. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Sorry, Owl, I've no direct experience with the Stoegers. For the money, it seems like a decent deal.
     
  12. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    My father in law has one of the Stoeger Condor I's, which is the 28" barreled version of the same gun. Decent gun for the money, certainly not a Citori, but functional. I've shot a few birds with it and can say it swings nice and worked when I needed it to.

    I've been eyeing those Outbacks too. I have urges, I must admit.

    It does only have extractors though and not ejectors. I heartily agree with Dave's earlier post that those would be more ideal.
     
  13. CZ52GUY

    CZ52GUY Member

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    A new wrinkle on fighting practice...

    ...I think it relates to the topic, please move if not.

    I bought a 590 this winter to keep simple, lighter than the House 590 (no onboard light). Something to train with on the range.

    I was doing some drills with it (I'm satisfied that it's suitably broken-in so the time are valid) this past weekend. We had some available steel and I was doing some self-timed stuff which went very well. Some new personal bests.

    Anyhow, I plopped the timer on the barrel, set it on a random delay, and moved forward a couple steps to game the likely start to occur as I was moving forward (or perhaps just settling to a survey-the-scene spot a safe engagement distance from the steel). I was doing simple mount drills and found that my times were faster than a static starting position where I stand there and wait for the delay.

    Got me to thinking that for "fighting", the first shot is critical, and the time from threat awareness to bang is a window of opportunity (AND risk) one should be prepared for.

    I managed a .40, then a .39 at 10 yards buzzer to bang with this "move-to-position" wrinkle...#7.5 centered on the steel when it hit. Given that, I'd think as long as the load and the platform was reliable, just about any 12 or 20 would "set the tone" of the encounter.

    With that in mind (and that my CCW weapon is an ever present companion in time of need), I too have been checking out the Stoeger Condor Outback as another SG alternative with great versatility at an affordable price.

    This new 590 also can be added to the stable of "fighting ready" SG's in my stable. I swapped the furniture for the Hogue forend and short stock...added a LimbSaver slip-on as a "spacer" to get to 13" LOP (which fits me perfectly), and I'm trying a "stick-on" competition 7-shell Side-Saddle...so far works well...angle just a bit different than the TacStar I'm familiar with, but worked fine after loading some shells in it to break it in.

    Keep Safe,

    CZ52'
     
  14. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Good fighting shotguns are not hard to find. Good shotgunners are.

    Become the exception....
     
  15. Trex

    Trex Member

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    Oddly enough, while I have an 870, my favorite short-barrel shotgun is indeed a Winchester 97. Among other things, there is is no trigger disconnect, which leads to this design's contemporary nickname of 'street-sweeper'. Six rounds as fast as I can cycle the slide. Not that that's all that effective, but it's an interesting 'plus'. In addition, that ugly old hammer is a useful safety indicator.

    One often-overlooked advantage of doubles is reliability. If you are talking a twin-trigger shotgun, you have in effect two weapons on one frame. No other weapon can get off a second shot as fast, especially if there is a mechanical problem or a dud round with the first. OK, modern guns are pretty reliable and modern ammo has relatively few bad rounds. On the other hand, Chicken Little only has to be right once.
     
  16. chieftain

    chieftain Member

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    My double is a hammer gun, it sits ready with no springs being stressed. Two barrels of #1 Buck. If it is a close fight, it will be dropped on the floor, or used as a baseball bat. Immediate transition to pistol, if I am still in the fight and still needing to fight.

    If I do have time and the need, my Bugout Bag has 10 rounds of #00 buck. That Bug out bag also has 3 30 round mags for my XCR, and 3 additional mags for one of my two warriors with a X200B light attached.

    So depending on how I assess the threat, I grab the Bugout bag I have extra ammo for which ever long arm I grab, an additional pistol assuming I had time to grab my carry Colt Gunsite Pistol Government. Extra batteries, extra flashlights, Small aid kit. Extra phone battery and binoculars. And a sheath knife, usually my ole K-Bar from Vietnam, and yes it has been blooded.

    That is how I approach the shot gun question. The shot gun is #1 choice, but the XCR is there set up for HD duty, with Aimpoint on 100% 24/7 and a SureFire 9P & LED head,with quick detach Larue mounts. In the Bug out bag above, is also the Aimpoint 3X magnifier, in a Larue Quick detach flip mount too. The Idea is, given the time, to be able to configure quickly if the carbine is chosen over the shotgun. The Carbine is set up at home normally with the Aimpoint and Light only.

    Just my way. Allows me to go to war in my house even if I am buck naked (this is not a pretty picture by the way, think whale out of water) with long arm of choice and the Bugout bag slung over my shoulder. Besides, if I am lucky the VCA will just go down laughing.

    I normally have my Colt holstered at home when up and dressed.

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
    vizslas1 likes this.
  17. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Trex, during my military service a Model 97 was part of our crew equipment. Never fired a shot in anger with it, but it was a real comfort on dark nights. A 97 is still an excellent choice, though I'll reseve judgement on the clones.

    Re doubles, simplicity, reliability, durability, and how many rounds does a typical civilian firefight average?

    Some of the CAS folks using doubles pull some mighty quick reload times.

    Fred, the paradox here is the more prepared we are, the less likely we are to need it.
     
  18. chieftain

    chieftain Member

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    BIG BINGO!

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
  19. 22LongRifle

    22LongRifle Member

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    Don't forget Ayoobs STRESSFIRE 2 book on shotgunning!

    Also, not mentioned much, but Benelli's Tactical Nova is a hell of a shotty!

    22lr
     
  20. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Yes, Fred, another Shotgun Satori brought to you by THR.

    22lr, if it's as good as Stressfire 1, it's very good.

    As to the Nova, maybe. Time will tell.

    And this is more about the software than the hardware.....
     
  21. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

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    I'm torn whether to make a new thread about this, or to use this one...well, obviously I chose the latter. ;)

    So, I've heard that the best thing to buy for your fighting shotgun is a LOT of shells to shoot in it...

    But, what are some recommended WAYS to practice?

    I heard skeet/trap mentioned, I've done it once and liked it a lot.

    Also heard loading on the fly, sounds like a good idea for me (I have a 4+1 870)...

    I'm not much of a hunter, so that's out...

    Anything else? Just maybe try to do some of the same things I do with a handgun? IE, shooting from cover, "drawing" and shooting, multiple targets, etc?
     
  22. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Practically all defensive/practical handgun drills and COFs are adaptable to shotguns,GL.

    Any shotgun game that requires fast shots at multiple targets in short time frames and loading under stress will do.

    In clays, shooting doubles is good, and shooting a flurry (Check the archives) is both fun and great training.

    HTH....
     
  23. 2nd Barrel

    2nd Barrel Member

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    Hi All,
    An interesting thread!
    Down Under, l have never heard of anybody buying or keeping a shotgun as a 'home defence' gun.

    Why is it necessary to have guns 'at the ready'? Is it really that bad?

    Not a criticism, just an observation from elsewhere in the world.


    My guns are always in the gun safe and shells have to be in a locked container also.
     
  24. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

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    In case somebody tries to break in. The odds of it are extremely low, but all the odds in the world don't mean anything if you're the one it happens to.
     
  25. jdh

    jdh Member

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    Why does Remington sell their HD/LE 870s with a 18.5" cyl bore barrel, then put on their buckshot boxes "best when fired in a full choke"?
     

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