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On Fighting Shotguns....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. BigSteve57

    BigSteve57 Member

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    I certainly appreciate your lengthy reply. The M4 was indeed purchased on the recommendation of some knowledgeable people who recommended a shotgun as a door gun as you put it, for hallway & stairway protection etc... Specific situations mentioned by the guys who gamed our home were when a door is being kicked when we're sheltered in place. I do have a laser & light on the magazine. Thanks again. Sometimes I overthink things. :cool:
     
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  2. Boattale

    Boattale Member

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    The last thing I am worried about on any of my firearms is spring fatigue.
     
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  3. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    I suggest you take whatever shotgun you'll be using to where you can shoot it. Before you do, measure the distances you'll be shooting in a home defense scenario. Try shooting at that distance.
    BTW, when defending the home and family; you can never overthink things.
     
  4. BigSteve57

    BigSteve57 Member

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    Thanks. I guess that is about 5-10 yards. Not very far for a shotgun to "open up".
     
  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Here's what we measured, using standard riot guns with improved cylinder bores (mostly 870's with a few Mossbergs - basic four round tubes, 18" barrels, simple bead sights, 12 ga using standard 2 3/4" 00buck rounds..). From the muzzle the shot spread out a one inch per meter from the barrel... At seven meters - a 7" pattern - at 15 meters - a 15" pattern over and over again... All of this was with range officers for the facility where every sworn officer in the Miami area went to qualify or practice during my era (1973 to 1995).

    Here's what that means in practical terms - you have to be aiming where you want to hit at close quarters (distances at 15 meters or less (very few homes have rooms that are 15 meters long (roughly, a bit more than 45 feet...). For defensive purposes inside a structure it's a very good idea to actually do a bit of measuring - particularly down hallways and the exact distances from where you'd be in relation to entry points (front door, back door, patio entrance... You get the idea).

    Now for the fun part - each shotgun needs to be patterned at known distances with the ammo you intend to use - since the combination of gun and ammo will pattern with individual variations.... For me, I want to do that at 7, 15, and 20 or 25 meters (or yards if you prefer) with basic ammo. Once you have a standard then you can go to Flite Control or similar rounds to see exactly what pattern they provide - if you intend to use them. In my opinion - no need for 3" magnum (high power, flame throwing monster killing rounds - you'll see lots of ads for...) the basic 2 3/4" 00buck round is a fight ender for close quarters work.... What is needed is some actual practice time with whatever ammo you choose - in the actual weapon you'll be relying on - in that one heart-stopping moment. If you'll make sure you can do your part - the basic riot gun will not fail you when it's needed to defend your home.

    The only additional advice I ever gave my officers was to aim just a bit low in a combat situation. Most under severe stress will shoot a bit high....
     
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  6. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Nope it sure isn't.

    I've noticed that unless I'm patterning a fancy shotgun's choke; most chokes don't measure up to what they should. Anyhow, at home defense distances, even cylinder bore is more a clump than a pattern.
    Chuck Hawks states a shotgun is patterns are measured at 40 yards.. 40 yards times 3 is 120 feet; however, how many home defense situations will be at 120 FEET?

    https://chuckhawks.com/pattern_shotgun.htm

    I'm not saying Chuck Hawks is wrong; OTOH, I do know for home defense, I could care less what the choke patterns at 40 yards..
     
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  7. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Shotguns are patterned at 40 yards for bird hunting, and clays games, because that's the usual yardages involved; obvious it behooves one to pattern a defensive shotgun in closer also, and with the ammo to be used for defensive shooting, NOT 7 1/2's or 8's!
     
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  8. George P

    George P Member

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    But, Entropy, I can guarantee that a 1-1/8 oz load of 7.5 at real close range WILL give you a bad day.
     
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  9. entropy

    entropy Member

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    No doubt about it. But OTOH, it took two weeks for a trap load to kill a friend of mine when he put the barrel of his 870 under his chin and fired. I prefer faster results. (Not on myself. I already shot myself once, I don't plan on doing it again.)
     
  10. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    You know better than to advocate birdshot use for defensive purposes. Hurting should not be the goal: stopping the threat immediately is the only viable option in such an instance.
     
  11. George P

    George P Member

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    I am not advocating it; I am merely saying that at 15 FEET, a full house trap load can and will do damage. No, it is not MY first choice, but for some folks, it may be their only choice.
     
  12. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Something that needs to be said about actually using a defensive shotgun in a life threatening situation... Almost all of the movies and TV shows we’ve all seen greatly exaggerate the effects a shotgun round inflicts. In short a full load of buckshot at close range or a bit farther away doesn’t have the ability to move an attacker at all. Only when the pellets penetrate deeply enough to disrupt critical systems will you see an attacker “stopped”.

    That’s why we use 00buck rounds for defensive purposes... You can count on about 18” of penetration on impact at close quarter ranges (15 meters or less) so you can be sure of the results needed... Use something less if you choose but what I’ve described is why the standard round for a police officer on the street was always 00buck... Do your part, and it’s a fight ender at close quarters.
     
  13. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Although, I never patterned a shotgun at 15'; I'd bet there is a high potential the docs will find a wad/shot cup too..
    Just joking.
     
  14. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Remember that military procurement of a weapon does not have as much to do with effectiveness, as it does cost and politics. Many small arms can easily meet and / or exceed military requirements. Look at the Beretta M-9. While it is certainly a good pistol, I would hardly call it the finest semi auto pistol ever manufactured. It has had it's fair share of issues and problems, just like all the others. Same with the Sig P-320.

    The Benelli M-4 is no different. There have been several problems with it not digesting lighter 2-3/4" loads. A claim Benelli say's it can do effortlessly. Another issue is cost. It is ridiculously overpriced at $1,800.00+ per unit. That is almost triple over most other semi auto shotguns in it's class. While it certainly can be considered a good weapon, I like to refer to the Benelli M-4 as the best $650.00 shotgun money can buy........ For $1,800.00.
     
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  15. ancientnoob

    ancientnoob Member

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    This is what I can add to this thread. Love it!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  16. Pure2nd

    Pure2nd Member

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    Great thread covering many years. What I take from this is my H&R 2OG 5+1 pump with bead sight and no other modifications makes for a perfect HD platform . I practice with it at least once a week and I'm certain whatever load is in the tube it will end the fight on the 1st shot...if I'm on my game. 18.5 inch barrel
     
  17. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Not familiar with that H&R pump gun - if you have a photo please post it up... Sounds like you've got exactly "what's needed" -and nothing else....
     
  18. Pure2nd

    Pure2nd Member

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  19. Pure2nd

    Pure2nd Member

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    And I spent less than $200.00 for that fine little sg
     
  20. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    thanks for the pics.. I've always preferred 870's so my knowledge of alternatives is a bit sketchy... Looks like a solid piece...
     
  21. entropy

    entropy Member

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    lemaymiami-it basically is an 870, same action, some parts even interchange. The receivers are boat anchors, but if you're not carrying it all day, they are a solid inexpensive HD shotgun.
     
  22. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Cool... and the one nice thing about HD weapons is you're not carrying a long gun all day (unless it's all gone up the spout...). You just need it handy and ready to go... for that one awful moment...
     
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