Quantcast

One .22LR in a dire situation: bolt or semi-auto?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by AStone, Sep 23, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    Well, I'm hesitant to ask this question ... naw, not really. Feels like it could be a good time.

    I'm a proud owner of a CZ452 .22LR. Nice rifle. Tack driver, sure enough.

    But lately, I've gotten bitten by 10/22 fever. Something about that little carbine that just says, "get one".

    But I'm different from most gun owners in that I lead a fairly minimalist life style (being semi-nomadic). I own few guns (4 right now, going on 5, which will be the max), and I only want one .22LR rifle.

    As a result, I've actually <gulp> considered selling the CZ452 and replacing it with a Ruger 10/22. (I started my rifle ownership at 14 with a Remington Nylon 66, so I've got some affinity for the carbine.)

    AND, my gun tool kit is driven in large part by preparation for a day when I might need a relatively small number of guns to meet my needs for defense and food (mostly small game) procurement. Call it SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, or whatever. The details need not concern us here, only the concept: you need a .22LR for food in a survival situation.

    It just seems (one of those gut feelings not necessarily backed up by "facts") that a 10/22 type carbine could be more useful in a "dire straights" situation than a slightly longer, heavier bolt action: a semi-auto carbine is shorter, lighter, easier to carry, lots of options for fixing it up, etc.

    But the bolt seems to have its advantages in terms of more velocity, more power, more accuracy, etc.

    So, that leads me to my question.

    If you were in such a situation (SHTF/TEOTWAWKI), and wanted (or could have) only one .22 rifle, would it be a bolt action with a longer barrel (e.g., 20") or an semi-auto carbine with a shorter barrel (e.g., 18.5")?

    Comment on CZ452 v. Ruger 10/22 if you wish, but my main question is, bolt with "longer" barrel v. semi-auto carbine with shorter barrel?

    And the important part of this is, why?

    (Don't you hate it when the question is not just "yes or no" but "justify your response"? Life's a bitch.)

    Have fun. I'm reading.

    Nem
     
  2. cookekdjr

    cookekdjr Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,429
    Location:
    Georgia
    The CZ 452 is one of the best firearms you can buy. The 10/22 is great design, and alot of fun, but there is no contest when it comes to accuracy, reliability, and utility.
    Go with the CZ.
     
  3. kentucky_smith

    kentucky_smith Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,686
    I traded my 10/22 for the 452. Haven't looked back. CZ is the much better gun. Although, I saw a decent Henry h001 for 150 that had me tempted for a 2nd plinker.

    Why the bolt over the auto? One shot, one kill. Unless you are worried about being attacked by a hoard of mutant killer squirrels.
     
  4. ddj8052

    ddj8052 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Location:
    Nipomo, CA
    I own two 10/22's and zero 452's and for your situation I would go with the CZ. I think the simpler manual of arms for the CZ makes it better in the situation you are describing. The semi auto will require a higher level of maintence in the very, very unlikely situation you present to us. As you can tell I do not buy into the scenario you are describing, hence I do have the 10/22's, because they sure are fun. Long story short, If I were you I would buy the 10/22 :D
     
  5. CB900F

    CB900F Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,717
    Nema;

    I've got both the CZ452 and Ruger 10/22's. If I could only have one, it would most likely be the CZ. That bolt gun will run absolutely reliably for decades, if not centurys. Stock up on the mags & make sure the springs are in the right way & don't look back.

    Heh! If it's gonna be an only .22 and a possible SHTF gun, well that's another argument for the Nikon, now isn't it? Which is gonna last longer with no problems, SwiftWovenBush or NikoLooper?

    900F
     
  6. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    Whew!

    Bolts (all CZ so far): 3, semi-auto (10/22 so far): 1.

    This election is still too tight to call (and we haven't heard from Florida yet :rolleyes: ), but very interesting reading already.

    Keep them cards and letters coming in....

    :D
     
  7. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,442
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    Exactly how does the barrel length effect using a rifle in a survival situation?


    My answer is to keep the CZ, WHY the tangent sight it makes hitting things at long ranges with a .22 easy even if your scope got busted in the nuclear blast. Where the 10-22 comes with the cheapest sights known to mankind. Lets face it NO real STHF rifle should be without good sights.

    Not to mention the bolt gun will cycke any ammo no matter how krusty.
     
  8. epijunkie67

    epijunkie67 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    East TN
    The only good reason for going with a semi-auto over a bolt gun is for an increased rate of fire. The bolt will most likely cycle more kinds of ammo and suffer fewer stopages in the long run, is more accurate (in general), and will last longer. These things are true (in general) regardless of what caliber we're talking about. But the reason our soldiers don't carry bolt action rifles any more is because they need the increased volume of fire. (And before everyone jumps on the wagon here, yes, I know there are other reasons. I'm making a point here.)

    Now you want a weapon to use if the SHTF. What do you expect this weapon to do for you? If the answer is "hunt food" then either will work and if you are much more accurate with the bolt then it will work better. If you answer "hunt food AND return fire to multiple targets" then the semi-auto is better. But if I'm firing on multiple human targets I hope I'm using something better than a .22lr to do it with.

    Not to get you off track but you COULD split the difference and get a lever action rifle. http://henryrepeating.com/leveraction.cfm Light, takes a scope, accurate, fires .22LR, L, and S, and faster follow up shots than a bolt but slower than a semi-auto. Only downside is slower reloads.
     
  9. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    Krochus, I think you just hit on a really important question there.

    I'm totally with you re the sights. But when push comes to shove, I think what's motivating my question is the length of the gun.

    I read your response just after having laid my two long guns side by side: my beloved 870P (see user name) and my 452.

    The 452 has virtually the same LOP as the 870P, but the barrel is just over an inch longer.

    I totally love my 870P for it's manuverability, it's quick handling feel.

    Now here's where my where my thinking gets cloudy (and even potentially flawed), but it seems to be driving my question.

    I am a carbine fan.

    There, I admit it: I like short long-guns.

    Especially where I live now (see location) in the temperate rainforest, where cover can be extremely dense off trail, I like having a short rifle. When I've got it slung over my shoulder, I like having it compact, short, not hanging up on tree branches.

    In my original post, I mentioned that I've got 4 guns now (2 handguns, two long guns), and am looking at a 5th in a centerfire.

    The top contenders are all short:

    Marlin 336, Ruger Frontier, and a little truck gun built off of a Savage Stevens 200 with an 18" barrel.

    It's that short barrel that I crave, for ease of carry (I'm a small person), not hanging up on overhead branches while crawling under them as I'm hunting for food, etc.

    I completely understand that the longer barrel adds more velocity, more accuracy, etc.

    But shortening this 452 by an inch (with a crown job) would make it such an easy carry, and couldn't hurt it's accuracy (for squirrels, rabbits, and birds) that much.

    Hmmm....
     
  10. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    epijunkie67, good points.
     
  11. flip180

    flip180 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    722
    If I had to make a decision for a SHTF critter getter, it would be a CZ-452 Trainer/Lux. It has great iron sights, reliable action and accurate out of the box. I'm not a big fan of optics for SHTF guns. I think Irons are more durable/dependabe for those times and the CZ-452 has IMHO the best Iron sights on a .22 rifle.

    Flip.
     
  12. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    Flip180, I hear you re the glass optics in SHTF. I have similar concerns.

    Recently, in a thread that I started on a scope for the CZ, I made mentioned the possibility of putting some "back up" irons on it. I have in mind an aperture site with, maybe a Tritium front sight.

    At least one poster, Farscott (see post 49) recommended a couple of sources for such tools.

    Thanks for so much input. This is stimulating a lot of useful ideas.

    Nem
     
  13. toivo

    toivo Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,711
    Location:
    New York State
    Another vote for bolt action with iron sights:

    --virtually unbreakable
    --very easy to maintain
    --accurate
    --able to feed any ammo

    It's an old cliché of the bolt-vs.-semi controversy, but it's better to hit once than miss five times.

    I'd say go for the barrel-cut-and-recrown. I like the idea of a CZ 452 "jungle carbine."
     
  14. flip180

    flip180 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    722
    I remember posting in that. Although I like my scope on my BB, it would take one good unfortunate bump on it to render it and thus the rifle useless. That's if the rifle doesn't have back up irons. Although my BB is a great gun, I'm wanting to get either a Trainer or a Lux with irons to round it out a bit and to have that iron sighted .22. I had a CZ-452 Super BRNO 2500 that I sold. It printed a sub inch five shot group at 50 yards using the stock irons and Remington bulk pack ammo. You can't beat that.

    Flip.
     
  15. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    21,744
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    The 10/22 is a fun toy. I love it. But it is not a tool. The CZ is a tool.

    The CZ is not magazine sensitive. It is not dependent upon ammo condition or brand to properly cycle. It does not care what the shape of the bullet is. It (for the most part) does not care if you drop it in the mud (altho you might). The 10/22 cannot say the same.

    I have a handful of 22LR rifles. The one that I build for no-crap-gotta-work-'cuz-Daddy's-gotta-eat usage is a bolt action with an aperture rear sight and a middlin' long barrel.

    One parting thought - I'm not sure why barrel length is an issue. When I walk the woods, I tend to take snap shots at game while they're sitting. To do this, I need a rifle that I can shoulder and hold offhand readily. I don't really notice the difference between a 18" and a 21" barrel in the woods, since (as a general rule) I'm not swinging the barrel much....
     
  16. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    I'm liking that idea better with every passing minute.

    Especially after viewing a CZ 452 Scout over in this thread (check out post #2).

    Now, yes, the CZ Scout is a youth model with a short LOP.

    But if I had a shorter barrel length on my style (I'd be happy with 18"), I'd be a happy camper...er, SHTF'er.
     
  17. flip180

    flip180 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    722
    "I like the idea of a CZ 452 "jungle carbine"

    You could get a CZ-452 Scout and put the barreled action in a Lux stock but, you wouldn't have the great sights though.

    Flip.
     
  18. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    RB, which aperture rear sight do you use?

    You should come out here to the Pac NW for a visit. Our woods are considerably more ... um, overgrown than those in Tejas. The key word here is DENSE. One has to crawl over, under and around while walking off trail.

    That's why I want that shorter barrel. I'm betting a hamburger and a beer that I could navigate those wood out here better with an 18" barrel than with a 20".
     
  19. flip180

    flip180 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    722
    To me the longer barrel has a better balance and steadies better. That added sight radius is nice to. An increase in velocity will be minute at best between the 18 inch and 20 inch barrels.

    Flip.
     
  20. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,442
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    You should visit the Ozarks here in Arkansas, Trail? what's a trail?:D

    The diffrence between 20" to 18" to me is meangless when craling through briars. But I'm a bigger fella 6'-3"
     
  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    14,448
    Location:
    DFW Area
    I'll bet that the barrel is choked. If you cut and recrown the barrel without rechoking it too, you will probably see an accuracy degradation. You'd be better off starting with a short barrel model 452 and having someone install the sights you want.

    I'd have a VERY hard time trading a CZ452 for a 10/22. I can see wanting a handier gun, but I don't know that the 10/22 would be my choice for my one and only .22LR utility rifle.
     
  22. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    Krochus, I grew up in Memphis, and walked a LOT in the Ozarks.

    Trust me on this, friend: walking in Ozark woods is walk in a well manicured park compared to what we got out here.

    Yeah, we got briers here, too. They love the extra rain.

    JohnKSa, good point about the choked barrel. Can anyone confirm that?
     
  23. GrayBear

    GrayBear Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Sierra Nevada Foothills
    I'd keep the CZ! The 10/22 needs a replacement barrel, extractor, trigger group and sights. Then you will have a decent, but maybe not great, rifle.

    I've got a stock 10/22. It jams easily and isn't overly accurate. A friend had one and did all the replacement stuff. It's better now but after $400, it still jams a lot with some cheaper brands of ammo. It jams from time to time with premium ammo. He can't even think about using the cheap and dirty bulk .22 ammo sold at Wally World.

    I also have two older bolt actions. Either out-shoots the Ruger for accuracy. One of my .22's was my Dad's old Remington he bought in the 1920's. The other one is a relatively cheap and fairly elderly Mossberg. They rarely, if ever, jam and either will happily eat Shorts, Longs or Long Rifles even if they are mixed up.

    Rapid repeat shots and hi-cap magazines are about all I see as being good about the 10/22.

    Oops! That statement could easily get me flamed .... I sometimes forget the 10/22 is not a firearm, it's a religion!

    GrayBear
     
  24. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    14,448
    Location:
    DFW Area
    You might be able to feel it with a tight patch.

    This guy says they are, but I don't know anything about his credentials.

    http://www.okshooters.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1615.html

    "AFTER cutting the barrel down, I learned that the last few inches of the barrel are actually "choked", getting tighter right before the muzzle. I lost a little 100 yds accuracy, but the rifle will still make sub-inch groups at 50 yds."
     
  25. RiverwinoIA

    RiverwinoIA Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Iowa
    recently picked up a 10/22 CRR, because i wanted a .22lr "brush" gun.
    16.25" bbl, a bit over 34" oal. I didnt want optics, 'cause i wanted something i could be "rough" with, without feeling guilty. So i picked up some tech-sights (t100). This gave me a good sight radius, along with durable and very functional iron sights. Im squirrel lethal to almost 50 yards, in hasty slinged or self supported positions, and im a noob to rifle hunting. Will get better with more practice, i think.

    In dense woods, snapshooting and follow up shots can save the day. Thats where a quick handling semiauto shines, imo. All this talk about mag sensitivity and malfunction issues... use factory mags, use ammo you know your rifle likes, and keep your rifle in good condition. "the 10/22 is a toy, not a tool"... lol, silly statement. Mine has shot well over 1000 rounds so far, and had 1 failure to chamber during the first 50 rounds through the gun, no other malfunctions.

    If you have long shots in wide open spaces, at stationary animals, i can see where a boltgun + optic will be better. or if you need to put 5 bullets inside of a .5" on a paper target at 50 yards. but that doesnt sound like your situation. hunting accurate is not that same thing as match accurate (i realize this is a matter of opinion, but you see what i mean)

    i vote 10/22, (especially a CRR with techsights ;) )

    (The LOP was too short on the 10/22CRR, but that was a quick fix thanks to the flat butt. I cut/shaped/fitted a 1" wooden butt extension, looks lame, cost nothing, works just fine)

    edit- forgot to add, in a .22lr using regular high-velocity ammo, the optimal barrel length is around 16", for maximum velocity. any short or longer and you will lose speed. so using anything longer is purely for sight radius or balance.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice