One in the chamber may have saved this man's life.

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Straight Shooter

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I came across this video several days ago but was hesitant to post it due to the graphic nature.

With all of the posts about whether or not one should carry with a round chambered I think this is a sobering example of what can happen if you have to chamber a round under stress and just how little time you may have to react.

In the video 2 men break into a jewelry store and immediately begin shooting one of the employees, it looks like more of an attack than a robbery. The employee tries to chamber a round before returning fire but he could not accomplish the task.

I don't think there is any way he could have avoided the first shot but if he wasn't fumbling with his gun he may have avoided the follow up shots and perhaps survived.

***Warning, Graphic Video***

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712
 
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Makes capacity look like it'd be a very good thing to have.

Helluva time to empty your 5 shot snubby and still have people shooting at you.
 
If you need it, you need it NOW.

Rusty, are you really willing to give up that easily? He was most certainly not dead the instant they came in. Bad guys can miss.

Cooper had it right:

Alertness
Decisiveness
Aggressiveness
Speed
Coolness
Ruthlessness
Surprise

You are giving up speed by not carrying chambered. You are giving up aggressiveness if you throw in the towel the instant shooting starts.

Fight until you either win or are dead...if you don't, you WILL die.

-Mark
 
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If the Jewlery Store employee was even firing, I could not tell...if he was, it was not having any effect on the BGs, even at very close range.
 
He was. At 16 seconds you can see the robber in white clutch his chest.

To be honest, he very well could have even had a round chambered, I can't tell from the video. It looks like he racked it several times. Could have even been trying to clear a jam.

The man was jerking all over the place before he even got his gun out. He had certainly been shot by that point. Which means they were trying to kill him before they even knew he was armed... which means he was already a dead man. QED.

By the way, I have seen this video before. There's another angle where you can see the robbers come in through the doors and start shooting as soon as they are inside. I'm looking for it right now.
 
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Look, I could go ahead and post some videos where the good guy had plenty of opportunity to rack his pistol...
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Rusty,

I just read the My Gunfight - "Thinking Outside Your Box" thread and see why you reacted so strongly to this one. For the record, this thread was not directed at you personally. It was in response to the many times this topic has come up. It was not a personal attack.
 
Rusty-

Honest question, I just glanced over the other thread...how long have you been carrying? I in no way mean this question in a nasty way, please keep reading.

I think what you describe goes through most of our minds in the beginning, which is why I ask. I know for me the first time in a movie theater with a pocket holster was a little weird, as was the first time in church (we have tiered seating in our balcony).

It comes down to something that I tell my students in class. You must choose a reliable gun, one that goes bang when you want it to, and one that does NOT go bang unless you want it to.

And the good news is that your PF9 is a perfectly good carry weapon. It is a DAO pistol, and has a passive hammer block safety. The PF9 does not have a firing pin block safety, but neither do many other weapons. The firing pin is not free-floating, so in order for the gun to fire without a hammer impact, the extremely lightweight firing pin would have to be given sufficient momentum to overcome the strong firing pin spring. Short of whipping the gun at a wall and having it hit at the exact right angle...in other words, it's not going to happen, even if you drop the gun.

It takes time. I've had many students who progress from keeping the gun in the home unloaded and cased, to unloaded and uncased, to loaded, to chambered. Carrying follows similar steps. Each step, they realize that they haven't heard a bang. Heck, I know someone who used to get nervous having the WWB bulk packs sitting around because the bullets could be pointed at someone. It passes, but it takes time.

You should have seen my face the first time I realized my 1911 safety had gotten flipped off inside my SmartCarry. There's a reason that a good holster means one that covers the trigger. :)

-Mark
 
That video depicted what I would consider to be a deliberate raid. It looks like the criminals had most certainly reconnoitered their target, and identified the individual targeted with their fire. Not a whole lot the gentlemen could do that he did not do.

I can't tell if he was trying to load a round, or if he was simply trying to reduce a stoppage from that video.

Defense is a personal choice. If one opts to go with an empty chamber, that is their choice, however, they must realize the possible consequences, just as those of us who run with a ready firearm must face the consequences.
 
A few opinions:

1) The debate for or against carrying a round in the chamber is largely reserved to internet forums and gun stores. Professionals on the streets of America almost exclusively carry with their weapons chambered.

2) I also think that this guy may have been trying to clear a jam. Either way, something went wrong on his end. This may serve as a reminder to make sure that you are using a weapon that you are VERY confident in carrying... It must function every time.

3) The video demonstrates the effects of a critical incident on fine motor skills. You could tell that the victim was psychologically "red-lining" at this point, just as most people are in such situations. Fine motor skills are not possible under that sort of adrenaline surge, and you'll behave as you were trained when faced with such a situation.

4) It does seem like he was shot before the incident was over. This brings up another important point: You aren't dead until the lights go out. If you are still conscious, and you still have a breath to take, you can stay in that fight. There are many people who are alive today merely because they kept in the fight against all odds, despite being severely wounded, and near death. It appears that this poor guy was trying to stay in the fight.

5) In an ambush, there is only a giving end and a receiving end. You only ever want to find yourself on one end of that equation, and this victim was unlucky enough to find himself on the receiving end of said ambush.
 
It looked like he shot one of the badguys maybe a stronger caliber wouldve knocked that guy out of the fight, then all would be is the accomplice.
You know This makes me really appreciate our rights to carry concealed or open wherever you can. At least i know i have a chance to bring the guy down with me.
my second thing to say is this guy is a hero in my eyes, those robbers shot him on the entry, what would have stopped them from staying there killing others, this guy shot at the guys they took off and in my eyes very easly saving other peoples lives. He is a HERO.
 
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Helluva time to empty your 5 shot snubby and still have people shooting at you.
Click to expand...

Helluva comment about a video showing a guy trying to clear a jammed automatic that has failed to be a weapon. I'd rather have 5 .357s for dead certain than 16 stuck in the magazine going nowhere. Better yet, remember that video posted here of the jeweler who has guns all over his shop? Everybody in that shop should have been armed.

Anyway, this happened where - in India, right? If they were at risk of this kind of incident, they could have afforded some outside security, even if it were just a youngster standing lookout.
 
from what i saw on the video it looked as if he was being shot before he had a chance to draw his weapon, having one in the chamber would have most definetly helped him fend off the attack, but it may not have saved his life depending on where he was shot. anyone operating a business of that type has to be constantly aware of every person who enters, problem is that is next to impossible while trying to actively run your business/deal with customers.

i have to concur with shockwave's point about multiple guns beating one jammed gun. if i were to work in a business with a high risk of violent acts i would most definetly carry multiple guns on me. i would prefer a high cap auto iwb and two j-frames that i could keep in a jacket or vest pocket and one on my ankle or small of the back.
 
He does not fire the gun before he racks the slide (in other words, it's not jammed). When he first attempts to rack the slide, he may not have done it completely, causing him to have do it again. While it might not have saved him, it certainly wouldn't have hurt to have one in the chamber.
 
Rusty-

Honest question, I just glanced over the other thread...how long have you been carrying? I in no way mean this question in a nasty way, please keep reading.

I think what you describe goes through most of our minds in the beginning, which is why I ask. I know for me the first time in a movie theater with a pocket holster was a little weird, as was the first time in church (we have tiered seating in our balcony).

It comes down to something that I tell my students in class. You must choose a reliable gun, one that goes bang when you want it to, and one that does NOT go bang unless you want it to.

And the good news is that your PF9 is a perfectly good carry weapon. It is a DAO pistol, and has a passive hammer block safety. The PF9 does not have a firing pin block safety, but neither do many other weapons. The firing pin is not free-floating, so in order for the gun to fire without a hammer impact, the extremely lightweight firing pin would have to be given sufficient momentum to overcome the strong firing pin spring. Short of whipping the gun at a wall and having it hit at the exact right angle...in other words, it's not going to happen, even if you drop the gun.

It takes time. I've had many students who progress from keeping the gun in the home unloaded and cased, to unloaded and uncased, to loaded, to chambered. Carrying follows similar steps. Each step, they realize that they haven't heard a bang. Heck, I know someone who used to get nervous having the WWB bulk packs sitting around because the bullets could be pointed at someone. It passes, but it takes time.

You should have seen my face the first time I realized my 1911 safety had gotten flipped off inside my SmartCarry. There's a reason that a good holster means one that covers the trigger.

-Mark
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Mark, that was a great post.

When I can afford to spend some more money on my firearms training, I will be looking for someone like you in my area.

A great illustration of "The High Road", in my opinion.

Thanks again!

Tom
 
Since I started carrying, I have always had one in the chamber. I have a P-11, 10+1, DAO. Perfectly safe, and reliable. Also all my weapons in the house are loaded ready to go. My bolt actions have full mags, with the bolt open. Ready to chamber as soon as a threat comes to attention.
An empty gun only makes a great hammer or paper weight.
 
I agree. Just today, I walked into the barber shop OCing my Browning HiPower. One of the barbers, a 60+ year old, immediately said "that gun's cocked". My reply was something to the effect that it's not much good otherwise. He said no more, so I didn't have to explain that the thumb safety was on with a round in the chamber. I think he got the message.
 
An empty gun only makes a great hammer or paper weight.
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Or an excellent decorative addition to any home!

In all seriousness, the only thing I don't carry with a round in the chamber is my trunk gun due to the fact that it's illegal to do so in CO.
 
He's not trying to clear a jammed weapon. If you pause/play through that second or two when he first gets the weapon leveled, he's trying to rack the slide from the very beginning, but they're shooting at him and his fingers have turned into thumbs - which is about what you'd expect. He's just gone into a gun fight with an unloaded gun.

If you pull up the story in print, you'll learn the man died and his unarmed brother was also shot, but survived.
 
IMO, chambered and con 1 is the ONLY way to carry a gun. But it wouldn't have helped this poor guy, he was targeted from the git-go. They came in the door shooting at him, it appeared to be a direct attack aimed at him specifically. Probably a retaliation from some previous incident. He'd have been in trouble even if he'd been sitting there staring at the door, with a gun in his hand and ready to go.
 
But it wouldn't have helped this poor guy, he was targeted from the git-go.
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He'd have taken less rounds if he'd been able to fire back. The first hit was unavoidable, but if he'd been able to draw and fire he might not have taken any more hits. You can't just assume that the first round he took was the fatal one.
 
He'd have taken less rounds if he'd been able to fire back. The first hit was unavoidable, but if he'd been able to draw and fire he might not have taken any more hits. You can't just assume that the first round he took was the fatal one.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Watch closely, the BG in the white shirt was firing with two pistols. The victim didn't have a chance. Poor bastard.
 
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