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Only Military and Police should have guns

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by leadcounsel, Dec 28, 2012.

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  1. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    The silly notion that only "military and police" are trained enough to own guns is dangerous. In my years in the military, including time at some of the best trained infantry and special forces, there were countless mishaps with guns; negligent discharges were shockingly common and some resulted in injuries, and there were lost guns. In the Army as a whole, including the Military Police and Criminal Investigation Division (CID), the misconduct and assaults is staggering, including negligent discharges and horseplay resulting in deaths, murders, assaults, sex assaults, thefts of guns, breaking and entering, etc. So the idea that only the "military and police" should have guns demonstrates a dangerous lack of understanding. Remember, "military and police" are humans too, with their own faults and imperfections, including serious criminal misconduct. Allowing only them to own the guns is very dangerous for America.
     
  2. Devonai

    Devonai Member

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    While I probably haven't spent as much time around soldiers with live rounds as you, I didn't see a ND either at Infantry school or after almost eight years in the Guard. So, my perception of such a danger is lower.

    That being said, I don't hold soldiers up to an embellished standard. In fact, the elitism of some in law enforcement, and the public perception that persists, bothers me. Cops do not have some sort of special Jedi training that makes them more worthy of being armed. They are armed as part of the social contract, nothing more. I don't think any serious discussion of the reduction in arms in this country can be had without including cops, which of course is far too much of a golden goose to gore.
     
  3. Grassman

    Grassman Member

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    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
    time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    It is its natural manure."
     
  4. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Well, you can't disarm police because, of course, in a country with porous borders and 300+ million guns out there, there is no sane expectation that criminals will ever disarm. I read somewhere within the last few years London in the UK has about 3000 gun crimes per year with gun laws in place that make Washington DC and Chicago look like libertarian Meccas.

    Which, of course, is also the critical flaw in restricting gun ownership for law abiding citizens but enough law abiding citizens are hoplophobes who are terrified by the thought of having to be responsible for their own protection that we're looking at another round of meaningless feel good legislation to keep the sheeple feeling safe at night.
     
  5. infmp32

    infmp32 Member

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    In one year of active duty when my unit was called up I saw enough ND's and dead clearing barrels to last a lifetime. And that was in an infantry unit. I laugh pretty hard at the notion that just because someone wears a uniform they're exempt from being a dumb ass. Much like the population at large, there are all types handling weapons on a daily basis in uniform. Some area absolute gurus with firearms, some make you want to stand behind them 24/7.
     
  6. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Well thats what Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong, and many other famous world leaders all said.

    SO, it must be true?

    rc
     
  7. runes

    runes Member

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    Having been in the Navy in 68-69, let me say that our firearms training was the biggest joke ever. Five shots from a bolt action .22 at no target.
    Should we have been trusted with a real gun?
     
  8. Kaeto

    Kaeto Member

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    The only firearms training I got when I was in the Navy (1981-85) was instruction on how to disassemble and reassemble a 1911. No rounds fired as the range was being worked on.
     
  9. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    My experience from 30+ years in a technical field is that across the board with humanity in any endeavor maybe 25% of those involved are actually competent in their field and diligently try to work to the best of their ability. 25% are competent in their field but do not care whether they actually perform up to expectations (give a crap that is), and the other 50% either don't have a clue as to what they are doing, why they are doing it, or when they are supposed to do it. I think of that often whenever I board an airplane......
     
  10. Romeo 33 Delta

    Romeo 33 Delta Member

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    Only police should have guns ... like a former Chief in a nearby city who managed to shoot himself in the hand while cleaning his personal pistol.

    Apparently I'm a more responsible gun owner, having in 58 years of continuous gun ownership (age: 68) NEVER shot myself, NEVER had an "ND/AD", NEVER wounded or killed anyone (except for my time as a Combat infantryman in 1968).

    The Elitists just make me shake my head!
     
  11. P.O.2010

    P.O.2010 Member

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    As someone who has worked as both a civilian Police Officer and a U.S. Army Military Policeman I can say without hesitation that what leadcounsel says is correct.

    Many people don't realize just how serious a crime problem the Army has. As an MP I responded to countless reports of rape, aggravated assault, assault with intent to commit murder, burglary, domestic violence etc. At my first post I was routinely assigned to a patrol area where the nearest backup unit was fifteen to twenty minutes away and where drug dealing, burglary and gang activity were commonplace. My first week on the road I was nearly murdered by an infantryman armed with a butcher knife who was attempting to kill several other infantrymen after being released from a locked neuro-psychiatric ward. Some of the worst crimes I responded to were in fact committed by other MPs to include one violent domestic where I had to arrest one of my own patrolmen at gunpoint. At one point I was approached by two CID agents about joining the organization. One of the two agents was later arrested by civilian police for burglary.

    What firearms training was I given to perform my duties? Fire 50 rounds at a stationary target from 25 yards for practice followed by another 50 rounds at a stationary target from 25 yards for qualification. That's it. No weapons retention, no instruction on how to shoot and move, nothing. Yet according to the powers that be I was qualified to carry a loaded M-9 pistol and exercise full powers of apprehension. To become proficient I had to seek out private instructors and pay them to train me the way I should have been trained in the first place. As a civilian Police Officer my training has been better but is still minimal with 90% of instruction being dedicated to passing the state mandated qualification table rather than surviving a gunfight.

    The idea that Soldiers and Police are as a whole adequately trained is a myth. The vast majority are not properly trained, refuse to practice on their own time with any consistency and largely view their weapon as something they will never have to use. I've met far more civilians who are truly proficient with their weapons than I have Soldiers and Police. Based on my experience the idea that only Soldiers and Police are competent enough to carry and use firearms is completely false.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  12. Pismopal

    Pismopal Member

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    Remarks about police officers who have accidents with firearms makes what point? They should NOT carry protection and you should be allowed?...a good safety record with firearms is what police work is about?....Felons who are expert with all firearms should be considered for CCW permits and police work? I am sorry...a police officer had an AD..and the point is? We have a lot of guns in this country because we have a right to have them so there are a few careless people who have accidents...like in cars. The rank and file police officers I have met support the 2nd amendment..management weenies do not count..they usually go along with politics..whatever they are. :scrutiny:
     
  13. P.O.2010

    P.O.2010 Member

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    I believe the OP's point is that Soldiers and Police shouldn't be built up into hyper-competent demigods not that they should be disarmed. The issue isn't that Soldiers and Policemen carry guns the issue is that their right to keep and bear arms is no greater than that of the citizens whose rights they've sworn to protect.
     
  14. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    P.O. 2010, that is an eye opener for many, and I wish I could quote you on some other boards I frequent who think just because you've been in the military or a LEO, that you are the be all and aend all of firearm experts.

    My previous gun club (I left because of a move, and joined one near my new home) often had local police come to practice to qualify. I have never seen so many violations of firearms safety rules including firing at a close handgun target when others were changing targets farther down range and had asked for and were given the "clear" command. I was also painted by muzzles several times where I took it upon myself to explain why it was not allowed and dangerous, then I left because I felt at risk. Some of these officers had their memberships revoked and asked not to return.
     
  15. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    That is one of the selling points to anti gun fools, but it is really all about control of the population.

    The military and police draw their paychecks from the Government. If you are in charge of the Government you can exercise a great amount of control over your military and police because you have the power of the purse over them.

    In fact, Politicians found a real taste for mercenary groups, like Blackwater, because mercenaries are fanatically obedient to their funding source . These mercenary type organizations will be used to control both the Military and Police if they get out of line.

    But the whole thing boils down to control and controlling the population.
     
  16. ms6852

    ms6852 Member

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  17. herkyguy

    herkyguy Member

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    I shot a whopping total of 100 rounds PER YEAR carrying the M9. That was under the guise of Federal Law Enforcement Officer. Just saying.....
     
  18. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Alot of experts argree! Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Id1 Amin, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Mugbe, Castro, and many others gong back centuries all firmly felt only the government needs guns!

    In fact, the British experts under King George believed that to. They tried to take OUR guns and well, you know what happened, right?

    Deaf
     
  19. joeh84

    joeh84 Member

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    i seem to recall a number of army times articles over the past few years regarding the numbers of soldiers with felony records upon joining...
     
  20. colorado_handgunner

    colorado_handgunner Member

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    "I'm the only one in this room professional enough" and we all know where that went.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  21. Flannelman

    Flannelman Member

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    Relating to ADs my BIL A now reserve officer in the NG but prior had been active duty for 5yrs and a long time hunter had a AD with his shotgun after duck hunting when he was cleaning it. Thankfully it was pointed straight up and only took out some drywall and roofing but still anyone who tries to say that the military and police are perfect is nuts.

    On a side note I have only been handling firearms for 15yrs now and I have yet to have an AD as a civie. Though on the other side my neighbor shot himself in the finger with his .22 pistol last summer so the coin flips both ways but I guess the point is that you need to pay attention and be careful sometimes it only takes being careless once to loose the chance to do it ever again.


    On a final note Tyrants love an unarmed population. Though If someone ever tried to roll up the Midwest that would be a hell of a fight
     
  22. velojym

    velojym Member

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    When I was working for an armored truck company, the only ND we ever had was from a retired police officer. Fortunately, nobody was hurt (just a spalled spot on the concrete floor, never found the slug), but when we were securing the floor, I noticed that his pistol was so packed up with lint and crap that I was frankly a little surprised that it went off in the first place.
    Funny thing was... he was checking his pistol not six feet from our sand-filled safety barrel.
     
  23. Dr_B

    Dr_B member

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    Every person I have met who thought "Only Military and Police should have guns" has been, without fail, someone who is afraid of guns, knows only what they have seen in movies, and has never fired one.
     
  24. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I've always said that in the military I have met both the best people in the world and the worst people in the world, with both groups wearing the same uniform I did.

    When I was at Ft Stewart (pre-Iraq invasion) there were standing orders that female soldiers were not to travel alone after dark in the barracks areas due to the risk of sexual assault. Pizza delivery drivers would not leave their cars and look for specific barracks rooms for fear of muggings. There were blocks of barracks personnel not assigned to were just advised to avoid after dark, period. MPs patrolling those and some other barracks areas on foot routinely had beer bottles and other debris thrown at them from upper floor rooms. There were at least two homicides involving both military victims and perpetrators while I was there (one may have been an accident -- the shooter killed himself before MPs could locate him so it's a question mark). There was at least one meth lab discovered in a barracks room.

    In short, while I wasn't at Ft Stewart as an MP (being a cavalry scout), the conditions there for MPs (some of whom I hung out with enough to absorb work stories) were as bad if not significantly worse in many ways than what I saw as a civilian police officer on the streets of a moderate sized American city. I could never really fathom why the post Provost Martial did not just raise hell and have chains of command decimate entire units for things like raining beer bottles down on patrolling MPs. But the command climate tolerated it, for whatever reason -- and this was before you could at least claim you were giving some latitude and forgiveness to guys going a bit off the rails after tours downrange.
     
  25. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    ARs can be purchased "off the shelf" in calibers suitable for hunting any sort of game in America making them suitable for every sporting purpose and not just for military use.

    They can be used for target shooting, hunting, varmint control, and plinking.

    They are about the only firearm that you can purchase 2 guns (lowers) to drop a different upper on to go to the range, the hunting camp or the plinking range and shoot in almost any sport.

    Like any gun they can be misused and be involved in accidents, suicides and murders, but unlike any other firearm I can think of you can use this one platform for just about any legitimate shooting purpose from self defense to plinking to hunting to competition.
     
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