Open carry in Texas 'much ado about nothing,' despite doomsayers' predictions

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Midwest, Feb 9, 2016.

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  1. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    For the same reason loosening/liberalizing laws of any sort is met with fear and resistance even from the people who should "get it."

    When something's been "this way" for more than a generation or so the people who live under those constraints tend to become pretty comfortable with the status quo. It goes from "this sucks," to "this is how it is," to "this is how it SHOULD BE! It's OUR WAY and don't go telling us we should change!!!"

    Folks start to see the laws their forebears voted into being as generally good, right, and proper, even when everyone else sees them as absurd, pointless, insulting, and tyrannical.

    It isn't just open carry, either.

    We've seen members argue against "constitutional carry," argue FOR universal background checks, argue that there SHOULD BE prohibitions on carry in banks, churches, schools, bars, sporting events, etc.

    The fact that there are impeccable examples of states without said restrictions and infringements seeing nothing but positive results doesn't seem to impress many people. It's not "our" way. That's not how "we've always done it."

    That takes time to break down, if you can even manage to convince enough brave folks to support removing the stumbling blocks from their own path.
     
  2. SimplyChad

    SimplyChad Member

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    I OC around a lot and have seen a total of 3 other people. The 07/06 combo signs are popping up a lot in some of the more unsavory areas.
     
  3. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    One reason for the trepidation about OC was that the bill to legalize it might have came with an even more horrendous backward step.

    When CHL became the law, locations could ban with a simple ghostbusters sign. They were not uncommon. Business organizations supported posting them for perceived liability. Then the next session passed the large 06 sign and many places didn't bother with those obnoxious signs.

    In the OC debate, antis (and some OC idiots) went along with a return of the ghostbusters signs or very small 06/07 signs. Those would have blanketed the area making the CHL useless in many places.

    We dodged that, thanks to the smart folks in the TSRA. The OC crowd also endeared itself by many of them saying they would oppose campus carry (a wonderfully more useful law than OC) if they didn't get their way. We almost lost campus carry because of opposition to OC. That happened in the past.

    As far as seeing signs just in bad places - that is not true. Check texas3006.com - combo signs are sprouting up in nice areas.

    So OC isn't a big deal in states where it existed for a long time and very few do it. That's nice. Our problem is the consequences here for a rather useless carry method. It should be legal - sure but that doesn't mean it was worth the problems that came with it.

    Remember the CA demonstrations just lost rights that never came back.
     
  4. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    When the law passed (even before it went into effect) several fast food chains put stickers on their doors that basically said, "We ask that you don't open carry here." Those stickers have zero legal weight but if someone ignores them an employee can make a verbal request which does have weight. That was a silly thing to do in the sense that they was never going to be a flood of open carriers anyway, but it is a reasoned silly thing to do.

    I suspect a lot of the new '06 and '07 signs came directly from those fast food stickers. Business owners saw the stickers and told one of their employees to, "get us some of the 'don't open carry here' stickers to put on the doors.". Next thing you know they have '06 and '07 signs posted, and the owner probably doesn't even realize it.

    As far as open carrying, I have carried a cz82 in the original flap holster, openly on my belt. Does that count?

    [​IMG]

    And the 51% signs in bars.
     
  5. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Colorado allows open carry except in the centers of tolerance and diversity and we don't have the signs you Texans are complaining about. I think it may be more about the location than the state, but that wouldn't allow for endless arguments and non-sequiturs. I am also curious about how many folks you have hanging around in parking lots observing whether a person has an empty holster and what vehicle they came from. This may be called the "High Road" but that is about as low of an accusation as I have read yet, but maybe Sam will have the explanation that enlightens me.
    Thanks in advance.
     
  6. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    The issue of thieves going through parking lots looking for valuables is pretty universal. That's why so many parking lots across the country have "Take, Lock, or Hide your valuables" signs.

    As for thieves noticing empty holsters, I briefly considered arguing the point because it does seem unlikely, but there is certainly a chance it could happen. Plus Texas allows unlicensed carry in cars so there are probably half a million handguns tucked away in glove boxes and center consoles anyway, so even if the thieves don't notice an empty holster they may figure the Texas licence plate is good enough to make a gun search worthwhile. That's why people like me have lockers securely mounted in their vehicles...
     
  7. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Been much ado about nothing for me,
    And, being in the DFW area, I expected quite a lot more to-do over this.
    Instead, pretty quiet.
    The Freebirds in Grapevine briefly had a "Please No Open Carry" sign, but, that is gone now. (I will guess someone pointed out that only a correctly sized 30.07 sign had force of law, and that they'd also need a 30.06 for CC put the kibosh on both.)
    The Signature Kroger where I shop has neither sign; ditto Wal*Mart down the roard--and this is Arlington, trourist trap-er attraction town.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Hmmm... well, sure, thieves do observe people to try and figure out which targets might be good ones to pick from. I've no idea if any thieves have been out looking at empty holsters. Don't see why it couldn't happen. If I saw someone with an empty holster heading into a school, here in PA, I'd certainly know with 99% certainty they had just left a gun in their car. But maybe crooks are dumb.

    Wait...huh? "As low an accusation...?" Who's accusing someone of something? I don't see what you're getting at.
     
  9. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Sam: My comment was directed towards the last sentence of post #41. If we can't use "Fudd" because it upsets some members why is "Goobers" acceptable? I probably should not have mentioned your name but you seem to be acting as a moderator in this thread, which is probably not a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  10. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Since most schools nowadays have security cameras in their parking lots, a crook would have to be dumb to go rummaging thru random cars looking for the gun, or anything else that was left in one of them.

    I'm surprised someone hasn't chimed in with "the empty holster will just make you a target since the BG will know you're unarmed!" Which will lead to, of course, the average Mall Ninja with a CWC weapon walking around with an empty holster as bait........
     
  11. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    We've had folks followed from gun matches and their car broken into at the pancake house. There was a rash of NRA stickered cars being broken into in Austin a few years ago. When the DPS had TX CHL instructors in Austin leave their guns in their cars for a class to be instructors, the cars were broken into. They changed that policy.

    So it could happen. It is risk but again the major problem is the wave of signs. Whether you OC and get targeted - not my problem.

    At two matches so far, no one has seen OC in the San Antonio area. When I lived in Oregon, which allows OC, IIRC - never saw in Portland, Bend or the coast.
     
  12. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "a crook would have to be dumb"
    Well there's your problem right there; only some of them are. They're the ones that get busted early and often, and tend to end up dead doing stupid things in also stupid places together with other stupid criminals. But, being human animals, they learn quickly, and with enough experience eventually become known as 'career criminals' which are anything but stupid.

    An empty holster is not only a sign you are unarmed, but have also recently abandoned a highly lucrative item in your last location. Just need a dude with a slim-jim in a Whole Foods parking lot with a decent set of eyes, and he can hit a few marks before anyone's the wiser. No one pays attention to car alarms, and he can always run away if someone confronts him. I've personally seen the exact maneuver in populated movie-theater parking lots during the daytime; guys wait for the showtimes so as to guarantee they have the most abandoned vehicles to search for the longest period before someone comes by. Not really a matter of 'it could happen' so much as a certainty.

    "It is risk but again the major problem is the wave of signs"
    Well, it sounded like the signage is a symptom of a concerted disinformation campaign according to reports some of the members posted. I guess all those demanding mom's didn't just file into their one minivan and drive back to NYC after the law was passed? Sounds like maybe our side needs to be educating stores about the actual state of the law (you don't have to either both signs or none), as well as the benefits of going sign-less (more customers, avoiding political drama, theft/robbery deterrent), and the downsides of going signed (ugly front door that looks like a liquor store's, for one; ND's by gunowners forced to disarm & manipulate guns in their parking lot because of their policy is another)

    TCB
     
  13. wickedsprint

    wickedsprint Member

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    In our metro areas, criminals somehow know which locked cars out of 100s have a purse hidden somewhere inside, be it under the seat or even in the trunk/glovebox. This usually occurs at the gym or large parks because they know purses are left behind in these locations.


    They'll figure out the empty holster too in areas where signs are predominantly posted to also force guns to be left behind.

    Anyone who doesn't immediately exit their vehicle upon parking will be scrutinized for an empty holster. The gun owner will return to a shattered window and a missing gun, wondering how the burglar knew to target them.
     
  14. Peter M. Eick

    Peter M. Eick Member

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    I have seen a few 07 signs but frankly I have not seen any open carry folks so far. I take the same attitude about 07 signs as I do 06 signs. They really mean, "I don't want your business". No problem, plenty other fish in the sea. I usually try to tell them why I won't patronize their business anymore but most don't care.

    I will say there are places that say "open carry welcome". They did a news spot on a dinner up 290 that was that way here in Houston. If I am up that way, I will have to try and support them.
     
  15. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting point. However, how will it be interpreted?

    1. Policy is to blame.
    2. People who carry guns are idiots.

    Guess.

    It was predicted that this would happen. It did. 07 signs don't bother me. 06 signs do. It also seems that the obnoxious sign strategy isn't working for 07s.
     
  16. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I assume having a NRA sticker on the vehicle would only double the odds.:rolleyes:

    In reality, the same could be said for anyone not immediately exiting their vehicle, with or without an empty holster on their side. I guess facts will show us in a few years if guns stolen from vehicles parked in the lots of businesses with 30-06/07 signs becomes a substantial statistic or whether the risk is minimal and the fear unfounded. Remember, folks said CWC was gonna make the whole country Dodge City. We see how that prediction came true, eh? Until then, making assumptions based on a WAG while wearing a tin-foil hat are just like that.
     
  17. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    The only adverse effect I've seen is the 30.07 signs.
    That's because they're balancing one "obnoxious" against another "obnoxious" and picking the one that they figure is the lesser of the two evils. Given that the frame of reference they're working from is the ill-advised open carry "demonstrations" by some groups prior to the passage of the law and the negative publicity that resulted, their choice isn't surprising.
     
  18. wickedsprint

    wickedsprint Member

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    My comment was more of a recommendation to avoid advertising your potential victim status with an empty holster.

    The fact is that criminals DO watch their victims park and exit the vehicles for indicators of items left behind.

    Quick version, never leave an unsecured weapon in the car.
     
  19. wickedsprint

    wickedsprint Member

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    Criminals routinely commit crimes in plain view of video cameras.
     
  20. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    So there are a few possible strategies the TX gun owners can use to erase the image of those chuckleheads and show gun carriers in a positive light.

    Strategy 1: Visit business where they know you well, only this time carrying openly. This will reinforce that you, as a regular and polite customer, are not suddenly a threat just because there's now a visible gun. They realize that normal people own guns and carry them. This strategy worked very well for me in Tacoma; shop owners that were leery about guns 'saw the light' and if another customer complained (few did) the shop owner sides with the polite gun carrier instead of the obnoxious whiner.

    Strategy 2: Do nothing. Lament the signs that were put up because the anti-gun folks were the only voice heard in the property owners' ears. If you're hit with a sudden burst of gumption, expend it safely by grumbling to other gun owners. Continue to behave as though guns are bad, and must be hidden. Go back to worrying about printing and inadvertent exposure, not because the law allows open carry so it doesn't matter, but because if a property owner sees it you might be asked to take your business elsewhere.

    One strategy has proven very effective, one has proven to further erode gun rights.
     
  21. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    How do you do that in all the locations that now have 07 signs? I fail to see this as a strategy that convinces the banned stores.

    Folks are writing and talking to the places that have put up signs. The major emphasis is to cause a dissociation between the 06 and 07. The businesses I've talked to with just 07, say they don't mind CHLs. They don't like OC.

    Now if a place does both, it is a loss for us to indulge a very small number of folks who want to OC. Having lived in other OC states - I repeat I never saw it. Thus, it's popularity cannot be judged by a few folks on the Internet who swear by it.
     
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't think it proper to say "it is a loss for us to indulge a very small number of folks" who want to exercise a right.

    We might say, "I wish another path to this point had been taken," or "I don't like some of the fallout that has (probably temporarily) beset us," but to say that by fighting for any gun right -- ANY AT ALL -- we're "indulging" a few (by implication) whiners and malcontents who couldn't leave well enough alone.... well, that's just not right.


    Just because we might not see many people do a thing in our daily travels doesn't mean their right to do so shouldn't be important to us.

    After all, just because it's Texas, doesn't mean the good folks there are any less trustworthy or any more deserving of having their rights upheld than any of the 45 or so other states where open carry is totally legal. Texas may be special, but not THAT special! ;)
     
  23. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    I don't know if I've seen a bunch more hell bent on withholding and then wishing to rescind a right of other gun owners.
    It seems Texans need to keep engaged and work toward further relaxing dumb regulations like these signs and other places one can't carry a gun.
    The sooner the good folks down there understand that they really don't need all those restrictions the better. I think that can be said for many states that have these "we've always done it this way" regulations and laws.
     
  24. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    To be both fair, and accurate, both of the strategies you list have been proven to erode gun rights if done improperly/imprudently, and both could possibly be effective if done properly/prudently.
     
  25. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Having lived in multiple OC states, see it. I've even seen it places whee the internet says you cannot open carry because you'll get kicked out (I've even open carried dozens of times to places the internet says you can't)
     
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