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Open carry is setting us back. IMO

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by G.A.Pster, Apr 21, 2010.

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  1. G.A.Pster

    G.A.Pster Member

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    Although I strongly support the right to open carry.

    Just think for a moment.

    It provides tremendously easy to exploit fodder for the anti gunners.


    It makes people on the fence and the antis scared and intimidated, and that’s just where the antis want them, so they’re easy to manipulate.:evil:

    You’re not going to win-over anyone over who’s on the fence with open carry.
    You’re not going to convert the mildly anti.

    The only upside I see is people you see all the time (like your barber, or coworkers) and who know you by name may eventually see that you have a gun and know that it’s ok that you have a gun, and you're not a nut, but that's just you not everyone else.


    But other than that only downsides.


    And if you still insist on doing it
    If you’re slinging a gun over your shoulder make it a
    Bolt action rifle (without a scope) or a double barrel shotgun, not an AR15, AK pattern or some other easily vilified gun.

    And don’t wear BDUs, or a beret, or a boonie hat, or other clothing that makes you look like some kind of Soldier of Fortune wanabe you should look like everyone else.

    And openly show your support for something everyone else supports, like a pink breast cancer pin.
    So that you have a common goal with other non-open-carriers.



    Anyway rant over. ;)
     
  2. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

    I think a degree of tact and judgement applies, but I'm not going to tell anyone when they can or cannot carry within their rights and the law.
     
  3. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    What you ARE going to do is inform people who otherwise were oblivious that there are people willing to stand up for their rights, and didn't even know it was legal. To say that the bad outweighs the good is, to say the least, subjective.
     
  4. General Tso

    General Tso member

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    Unfortunately, I agree with you.
     
  5. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    Him or me?
     
  6. Big Boy

    Big Boy Member

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    Is this what you think most open carriers do? There is about one percent of people who open carry who actually carry rifles, and I've never seen it done in military garb. In fact the only times I've seen rifles carried are in demonstration.

    The average open carrier, such as myself, straps on a gun just like every concealed carrier in the world. Wearing the same clothes as every one else. The only difference is that our gun is on the out side of our waist band.

    It's a right. Exercise it or lose it. What's the point in having the right to open carry if it's frowned upon and no one does it? Why do certain pro gun people think it's bad to do? Cause it might scare the anti's. Why are anti's scared? Because they don't think guns are normal things. They don't see them as tools. They see them as scary, self acting devices of murder and mayhem. Open carry puts it in the normal world and forces people to see them and interact with people they know are carrying. Then they have to go home that night and realize "woah I saw a guy with a gun and didn't die." Most people who are against guns simply don't understand them, have only seen pictures of them, and only heard about them in the news. That is why they are scared.

    Most don't do it to demonstrate, at least I don't, I do it because it's my right, I don't need a license to do it, and it's easier than hiding it. A bonus is that it introduces people to the fact that there are safe responsible people in the world who carry guns.
     
  7. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    This is a sentiment that comes from political correctness. There is no right to NOT BE OFFENDED.
     
  8. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Exactly! +1 The only difference between the concealed carrier and I is where our shirt gets tucked in.

    Or, we could say this:

    Concealed carry is setting us back. IMO

    All concealed carry does is hide the positive side of carrying a firearm from the general public. The anti-s are going to proclaim from the mountain top every negative incident involving a firearm out there. The person who conceals their firearm is doing nothing to advance our cause because all they are doing is hiding the positive side of firearms from public view.

    The concealed carrier is showing no one the importance of the right to self protection. They are doing nothing to normalize the image of a person carrying a gun, in fact, they are showing the public that the gun itself is something that is so inherently abnormal that it must be hidden from view.

    In addition, the concealed carrier is condoning and supporting the idea (in 47 states at least) that it is perfectly acceptable to take a right - the right to bear arms and provide for one's own protection - and turn it into a privilege that the state can not only regulate, but collect a tax on as well. A right is an activity that one is free to engage in without the need for government permission or taxation. The concealed carrier is not exercising any right at all (again in 47 states), but is demonstrating that they are willing to bow down to a government that refuses to acknowledge the right to self protection and in the place of that right forces citizens to pay for the government's permission to protect themselves.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Senior Member

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    It's shocking the first time you see it, then it gets to be routine.
     
  10. unloved

    unloved Member

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  11. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    It would be easy to agree with the OP, but I actually disagree. Pro-gun and pro carry gain from having peaceful folks carry openly because it becomes more routine over time and others are desensitized to it.

    However I do see that certain events could harm the gun community and I worry that someone will be planted as a pro-gunner by the anti-gun folks and cause a stir.

    For me personally I would only open carry in unique situations/locations.
     
  12. RatDrall

    RatDrall Member

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    Anyone offended by an openly worn weapon needs to grow up.

    Anyone worried about what said people think needs to worry less about what others think and go back to their business.
     
  13. ccw_steve

    ccw_steve New Member

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    I don't post here often, but I feel compelled after reading the OP's thoughts.

    For years I agreed with the OP: open carry is good and legal, but many antis use it as leverage against the 2nd Amendment and therefore people who OC are just causing us trouble.

    However, my opinion has changed tremendously in the last year or so. There are two reasons that come to mind:

    1) The open carry movement has done more to put gun rights at the forefront than ANYTHING any other gun organization or gun movement has EVER done.

    What other gun movement has news channels, tv shows, and the average person talking about gun rights in an open and public forum? Every night I turn on the TV, I hear "OC this" and "OC that". Thank God that some of us (RKBA'ers) finally had the balls to actually practice what we preach (by bringing gun rights into the spotlight).

    2) When I CC every day, NO ONE KNOWS! This is a spin off of point #1, but it is the reason I first started thinking of open carrying. I wanted to get people talking about gun rights, but protest marches and firearms purchases did nothing to convince the average Joe. With open carry, people are instantly polarized: "Yikes, that guy has a gun!" or "Good for him, supporting our rights!"

    The second reaction is desirable, but at least the 1st reaction is something we can DISCUSS with said person. If we are hiding in the background (or even trying to blend in as the OP suggests) then we are doing NOTHING to further RKBA. We need people to start talking, that is the only way progress will be made.

    I haven't open carried yet, but I have been more than impressed with the type of people who do: polite, respectful, and knowledgeable people who are willing to be demonized for our rights.

    I sincerly hope that in the future, I can to grow a pair and be willing to stand up for the rights I claim to support.
     
  14. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Actually, most of the reactions I get are questions:

    Do you have to have a permit? Is that legal? Etc....

    I was standing at a bus stop once when this younger woman from quite a distance away asked loudly, "Is that a gun?". I tried to ignore it, when she walked up and asked me directly, "Is that a gun?" Then we proceeded to play most of the questions. At the end she said, "Wow, I didn't know that, I can't wait until I am 21, I'd sure like to be able to carry one!"

    I would say of the question askers, about 75% go away with a lot more positive feeling about it when they are presented with knowledgeable answers given by a "normal" person doing "normal" things in everyday life.

    Well, time to put my gun on, head to Wal Mart to find a "thank you" card and probably get dinner at Burger King...
     
  15. Bluehawk

    Bluehawk Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, "open carry" has now prompted a new Bill in California (who's not surprised??) making it a crime in many instances.
    I need to move the hell outta here!!!!!
     
  16. MikePaiN

    MikePaiN Senior Member

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    As I said before, I don't and won't OC. Only time sidearms are going on is if SHTF, there is a breakdown in rule of law or at a shooting competition.
    This is based on my opinion and choice.
    As far as OC and the law goes....every single one of us better pocket our opinions and egos and get 100% behind defending the right to OC.
     
  17. One-Time

    One-Time Member

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    Its only setting us back because people keep selling out for some of our rights and dont want all of them
     
  18. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Senior Member

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    Some people aren't clever enough to figure out on their own that guns do not automatically create violence.
    Those people have to be shown guns in public that are not causing violence, it is educational.

    Too bad if someone gets scared or offended, they are just taking too long to get the lesson of OC.
     
  19. G.A.Pster

    G.A.Pster Member

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    “Anyone offended by an openly worn weapon needs to grow up.

    Anyone worried about what said people think needs to worry less about what others think and go back to their business.”

    Indeed, they do need to grow up.

    But we are the minority, until we’re the majority our goal should be to win converts.

    You can’t force your opinions when you’re the minority, you’re the one that gets bullied.
    .............

    and to clarify: I don’t think that most people who open carry are Soldier of Fortune wanabes or carry an AR15, I’m just saying that would be about the worst thing you could do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
  20. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    I will compromise. (I have posted to this effect before.)

    For example, if I am out with my dad in the desert towns by Utah's west desert getting fuel for the ATVs, I will likely have my 1911 on my hip. Walking past sheriff deputies. No one says a word. There was one incident last fall when I was in such a place, in a convenience store paying for gas, and I overheard a guy sitting at a booth say to his friend; "I hope he has a permit for that thing." I thought about correcting him, but I decided not to. I figured, if he is really worried, he will speak up, or go look it up for himself. It isn't difficult to find out. I didn't feel like starting a shouting match on the opening morning of deer hunt.

    Say I'm walking down 400 south in Salt Lake City. This is the street that goes past the courthouse, the city/county building, the new library, and lots of restaurants and coffee shops on the way up to the U of U campus. I can walk straight to the campus open-carrying, perfectly legal. BUT, if there is a crowd whose feathers don't need to be ruffled, this is them. This is where the hemp-wearing street philosophers hang out, and many of them are probably blissfully unaware that I can carry. I don't need to awaken them, because they might remember to show up and complain now when they otherwise had other things to worry about. Not helpful. BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, say I am walking down the same street carrying concealed, and there is another guy carrying in the open, and someone decides to heckle or confront him? Should I criticize that person for being insensitive, or should I yell back at the heckler; "Leave him alone. He is within his rights and the law." I would of course support the carrier.

    A few weeks ago Nick Moyes (the president of the republican student group at Utah Valley University) was hassled by the campus police for open carrying. (I started a thread on this.) He recorded part of the confrontation and posted it on youtube. At the time, there was legal grey area, because state law on brandishing was unclear. There was a bill on the governor's desk, waiting to be signed, which clarified that just because a person HAS a gun, and someone SEES it and doesn't like it, doesn't mean that the person was BRANDISHING the gun. A couple of weeks later, the governor (I believe as a direct result of this incident,) made up his mind and signed the bill. This is a POSITIVE result of a citizen sticking his neck out, risking personal loss, and making a difference for our side.

    Where there is legal and perceptual progress to be made, we have to be the ones with the fortitude to make sure it gets done. I an tired of being defensive and ashamed for being a gun owner.
     
  21. ssblair

    ssblair New Member

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    I'm all for the positive publicity effect of getting people to recognize that not everybody that has a gun is a nutjob and that guns should be "normal", but I wont openly carry unless I'm at a shooting competition.

    Why? Because I think its a defensive faux pax; if there is a bad guy around with murderous intent, I dont want to be the first guy he shoots at because openly showing that "hey, I can shoot back" makes me the primary target.

    Also, in a world where it can be difficult to keep everybody at arm's length from all directions, I would be concerned about somebody separating me from my weapon by one means or another, and using it against me or a loved one. Or worse yet, they follow me home, then burglerize my house for my guns when I'm not home.

    I would rather be incognito, with a surprise for any bad guys that try to do something bad in my vicinity.

    OC as part of an organized demonstration is OK by me, but I probably won't be carrying due to reason #3 above.
     
  22. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    On the surface, I can back the OP on his opinion. That being said, where does it end? If my pocket knife scares people, do I need to stop wearing it? If carrying a baseball bat to the ball game scares folks, do I stop? Should I always keep my crowbar hidden even when using it? What about my tool belt. That framing hammer is pretty big...could scare someone.

    OC is not for me, however, an OC weapon poses no more danger than the weapon I carried IWB all day today. I refuse to be one of those who supports CC and shoots down OC. IMO, it is like the "gunner" who supports HIS 12 gauge but tells me my handgun should be illegal. We are pro 2A or not.

    These OC guys have brought some open debate. I personally welcome it. Given honest and open debate 2A will win.
     
  23. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Senior Member

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    That's not the point. The point is that when people are offended they often take action. That action sometimes results in restrictions upon the people that offend them. It's undeniable that open carry has, in certain cases, led to increased restrictions on open carry due to people being offended by it.
    I agree. Unfortunately that's also beside the point. If you offend people you'd better be sure that you can handle whatever they dish out. I'm talking about people pushing for increased restrictions on carry (open or otherwise) as a result of being offended.
    Yes, it's especially too bad if those scared and offended people have a representative in government who shares their view and is sympathetic to their fear and offense. And it's REALLY too bad if they can pass laws to prevent their scared and offended constituents from being frightened and offended by open carriers in the future.
    In some contexts it might be the prudent to conceal it. In other wisely chosen situations carrying it openly might provide an avenue to educate someone.

    This all comes down to being prudent. It comes down to understanding that if you offend/frighten/irritate too many people you can end up hurting yourself and others who share your views.

    So am I against open carry?

    No. But it does have the potential for negative outcomes and those who open carry need to be aware of that potential and do what they can to prevent it. It's in their best interests (assuming they wish to continue open carrying) and in the best interests of all gun owners.
     
  24. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Senior Member

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    OR, it forces people who didn't realize that it was legal to understand that it is here, it isn't going away, and it isn't impacting their lives in any way. We must be willing to risk to make changes.
     
  25. G.A.Pster

    G.A.Pster Member

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    Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean they’ll respect it its like trapping, and hunting.


    If you want it to stay legal you don’t put a bloody deer on the hood of your car, and you don’t trap where you’re going to catch someone’s pet (even if it is their fault) or where your catches will be visible from the road.
    Because it will ruin it for everyone, and have farther reaching implications.

    They think “I feal threatened and intimated, and I can't believe that’s legal we better fix this loop hole” and then they ban CC too and then on from there.
     
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