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Open letter to the THR community...

Discussion in 'Legal' started by cz75bdneos22, Apr 2, 2006.

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  1. cz75bdneos22

    cz75bdneos22 Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    brownsville texas
    Howdy, Damn it!,

    Due to several threads being shut down over innappropiate and uhhighroadish comments regarding the hot topic of illegal immiration to the U.S., i contribute the following..This is Thehighroad.org...follow the principles of the site or you are free to post negative diatribe concerning this or other political/legal issues of relevance to the community in other less discerning websites.

    The question that THR must address is how will we contribute to change a failed past/current policy regarding illegal immigration. As Americans, we have a duty to conduct our dialogue, discourse and debate over hot topics such as illegal immigration, RKBA, etc and all other hot topics currently affecting our country in a logical, sensible and knowledge based manner.

    We must unite to make an impact in regards to changing national public policy and the current ineffective gov'tpropaganda/ agenda. It is a fact that hard and unpopular decisions will have to be made. Some even not to your liking...but we have a commitment to contribute our thoughts nevertheless...whatever results will be a matter of communication, followed by compromise, in order to arrive at a workable effective solution to the problem that is so hot in 2006. If we as a country keep doing the same things policy wise, then We will keep getting the same results. where we are right now, is the sum total of the decisions we've made up to this point..so, do we want to keep it up?

    Onto another note, postings of an irrational, emotional and possible destructive nature ; when you introduce weapons/anti-social behavior to resolve divisive issues, is an invite for disaster in the making... Life is 20% what you know and 80% how you react to it...we all need to keep the main thing; the main thing. Albert Einstein once said " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds." We have a long, hard journy ahead, but as Beverly Sills had it right when she said, " There is no shortcut to anyplace worth going."

    The issue here is illegal immigration to the U.S. All comments addressing by whom, where, how, what nationality or race, from what culture etc. are moot points. The fact is illegal immigrants come to the U.S. because it is the land of economic opportunity, period! Not, and I repeat NOT!!! because the U.S.A. is some kind of moral, social, cultural or political Utopia. An American is either one born to or naturalized by law. Not one who espouses a particular common ideology. It's different strokes for different folks! Deal with it.

    Now, we have 12 million illegal immigrants contributing to the economic/social welfare of the U.S. They are employed by the service, sanitation, construction, food and agricultural sectors of the economy. Illegal immigrants are made up of unskilled and skilled workers in a ratio of approx 80% unskilled-10% skilled. the other 10% totalling 100% of total immigrants to the U.S. are legal=professional immigrants. What this means is that there are 11.8 million available workers who in their respective countries earn anywhere from $700- $4200 year. Anyone who has traveled past the Western Hemisphere knows that travel expenses incurred by legal immigrants will exceed the per capita income of those 80% who do it(immigrate) illegally..it does not take a PHD to figure the obvious economic incentive, as well as other benfits available for them to immigrate illegally here. Now, the rest of 120,000 legal immigrants who come here are profesionals who are granted visas by our gov't according to need of their respective professions. Thus, a nurse is granted a visa quicker, than say a researcher in superconductivity field..current quotas/lotteries by the U.S. make some waiting list for visas as much as a 10 yr. wait for some professionals. It's not rocket science. Even if you were granted a visa, let's say. You need money. Money for education, money for expenses. Money for applications and for travel expenses to U.S. So, you see. it's not so easy to just say...immigrate legally..if it was that easy, then would you put your life and limb to treck across the globe to cross the Rio Grande, deal with the Border Patrol and even if you get past them...deal with some guys with firearms in hand vouching to do what the law can't do right!!! All 12 million immigrants would be seeking legal immigration...

    And, this is just one of many, possibly disastrous, (take matters into our own hands) actions being advocated by so called Patriots and such...por favor... come on, now! We are the kings of our destiny, and we must come up with a plan to address this issue of national concern. Strenght through Unity..Unity through Faith..my fellow Americans.

    In closing, I bid you to consider this. Often, negative emotions (thoughts) will lead even seemingly smart individuals to engage in negative; possibly criminal behavior (actions). This being thehighroad.org. We must expect to do better and We will. If we fail, then truly SWHTF!!

    i tried to be clear and concise...i tried to make a point.i am not degreed, so excuse my poor writing and grammar skills! lastly, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...YMMV
    a concerned high roader.;)

    (edited to fix paragraph formatting -- pax)
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2006
  2. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

    Feb 13, 2006
    In the land of make believe.
    To bad we don't have a "Good Posting Smiley."
  3. NukemJim

    NukemJim Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Why not? Millions have done it before in US history.

    Every ilegall immingrant has broken the law coming into the US and has proven that they do not follow the rules.

    Every illegal immigrant that gets into the US is encouraging others to break the law by their actions AND is being extremely disrespectfull and unfair to people from other countries who want to come here and are taking the time and effort to do so LEGALLY.

    I welcome LEGAL immigrants wherever the come from, I do not care.

    I believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be arrested and deported wherevere they come from, I do not care.

  4. Kodiaz

    Kodiaz member

    Nov 13, 2005
    Palm Beach County
    This has been the Bush lackeys SOP (standard operating procedure) here for weeks whenever a thread doesn't go their way they start the this is off topic chant. I'm glad the illegals don't affect yout live negatively, but they drive wages down in the Blue collar segment. Now I know you don't want to pay an American to do your blue collar jobs or you own a business and don't want to pay a decent wage.

    But spare me the off topic thread garbage.

    Bush is a liberal please stop your cheerleading.

    This isn't on topic is a sure sign that the apologists' arguments have no weight.

    I recently became interested in the history of Cuba (where my parents legally came from) I wanted to know why my grandfathers ran here instead of fighting for their homes. It turns out my family was pretty well-off under Bautista but he was a dictator and if you were poor you were garbage to Bautista.
    Cuba being an island guns are not easily available especially since a dictator was running the show for 20 yrs. before Castro so people couldn't fight because they had no guns.

    Well Castro comes along and he promises the poor everything under the sun and they win so Cuba becomes the socialist garbage country that it is today.

    You call them 12 million I say the government is as usual wrong it is probably 30 million. If you look at the recent elections in South America you will notice that many socialists have been voted into office. These people will vote for socialists just like they do at home. So when you have to pay for national healthcare all kinds of welfare and then you get a lot more gun control as an added bonus don't say noone warned you.

    It isn't that people that have similar opinions to my own are "so-called" patriots. It's that you and your ilk are tories.
  5. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    May 5, 2005
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    Keeping it High Road.

    While I agree that any discussioin that will amount to anything needs to be done in a civil manner, it also strikes me that when anyone who is against the illegals begins to make a valid and strong point, sometimes vociferously, it is declared off topic or anti-cause du jour.

    This discussion, not just this thread, is very related to our rights, including firearms rights. An erodsion of one is an erosion of all.

    I've always heard that we mellow as we age, but I find myself gravitating toward the more outspoken and so-called radicals as I see more of the world around me. Maybe that's my reaction to feeling that many in this country who are beginning to say what they feel is right are being told they can't, while an invasive opposition is given free reign.
  6. RealGun

    RealGun Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Upstate SC
    Get rid of the mean spirited punk stuff, and maybe you could have some intelligent, high road discussions.
  7. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    United Socialist States of Obama
    I agree.

    And usually the person who is anti-illegal immigration is accused of being racist. Its all just a way of the Bush apologists to divert attention away from the fact that the government will not deal with the illegal immigration problem. If they can marginalize or radicalize their opposition, they figure no one will listen to their opposition.
  8. JesseJames

    JesseJames Member

    Dec 19, 2005
    CT, it's expensive here
    I don't buy into the argument that "illegals" do the work that many Americans won't do.
    My buddy worked on a farm handpicking corn through the summers when he was a kid. It was a backbreaking job. But guess what, he is now a successful businessman who is a manager at a national chain computer retail store. He worked his way up. No degree.
    I worked many heavy labor jobs and in some ways enjoy it. I am not the office/cubicle type, no sir.
    American families should return to the value of WORK. And not view labor-intensive jobs as "beneath me".
    Send all the illegals back and get those lazy spoiled brat, soda guzzling, potato chip munching, boob-tube watching, pointless cell-phone conversation having teenagers off their Xboxes and Playstations and earning their pay and learning the value of a dollar instead of becoming another useless college grad who can't find a job in their field and has a stinking high-falutin' sense of entitlement. I can't believe how many of those there are. Sheesh.
    In my view those illegals are STEALING jobs. Good character building jobs.
    Maybe if those rascals at Enron and WorldCom started out the way my buddy did they wouldn't have been so ruthlessly unscrupulous sons of you know what excuse my French.
  9. Travis Lee

    Travis Lee Member

    Nov 7, 2005
    New Mexico
    Why is it "unhighroadish" to discuss the failure/refusal of the US government to defend the borders, and enforce existing law?

    If some members believe that 12 million illegal aliens in the US is a good thing,
    I would like to know if 24 million is better... Is 50 million illegal aliens better still?

    How will we know when we have "enough" illegal aliens,
    and how will we control the illegal immigration, THEN?

    If illegal immigration, and the related issues are prohibited topics here, I would like a clear unambiguous statement, by the moderators to that effect.

  10. wingman

    wingman Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    I think Illegal immigration is an important topic however it requires we remain
    civil, many posters become very impassioned over the issue some I think
    want it closed so they scream racist.

    Art Eatman has been more then fair on this issue through out my viewing
    of this subject and I believe would remain so if the name calling and
    Inflamatory language would halt.

    My opinion at no cost.:)
  11. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Member

    Mar 19, 2005
    Nacogodches, Texas
    Save us from the Mods!

    Mods just amaze me. They are the same on this forum and all others. They get all holier than tho and start shutting down any thread they have the slightest problem with.

    For a max extreme example I offer "DU Underground". Disagree in the minutae with Mod Montra and you are shut down and locked out permanently.

    The ILLEGAL immigration issue is one Many Many of us want to discuss at length, but because Eatman and others do not see the value in our discussion he proceeds to lock everything down. At the end of one locked thread, the Great Mod Eatman indicates he will limit the topic to only 1 thread. Fine. Problem is the Great Mod Eatman locked the last one.

    This rant is off topic. Go ahead and lock it down and ban me from the site.
  12. tanksoldier

    tanksoldier Member

    Sep 3, 2005
    The problem as I see it is that laws are on the books which are deliberately not being enforced. Either enforce the law, or eliminate the law. The worst possible thing is to have a law on the books, and then ignore it.

    I support legal immigrants, every single one of us has a few in their family tree, even the "Native Americans" probably had immigrant ancestors from Asia. I'll even support a "registered guest worker" program. I'm not going out and harvesting almonds or whatever, if they want the work let them have it.

    I do not support anyone who breaks the law. Illegal immigrants are just that, illegal, and should be delt with acordingly.
  13. allmons

    allmons Member

    Jul 12, 2005
    East Tennessee
    I don't understand the debate.

    People BROKE THE LAW, entering our country illegally.
    Close the border, send a bill to Mexico for the damage caused, and then make it easier to legally immigrate.

    What is there to discuss?

    All the guardhouse lawyers amaze me with their ability to take a simple issue and make it complex and stupid.

    Racism has NOTHING to do with Americans wanting laws enforced. If the law doesn't work, take it off the books. But DO NOT reward people for breaking the law.

  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Feb 16, 2003
    Ft. Worth
    That is the important thing, that we are talking about criminals. In a lot of cases people that violate the law daily in any number of ways.

    It's funny that if we were talking about a burglary or a murder it would be OK to call for the head of the criminal, but it's "not the High Road way" to do the same thing for the criminals in this case.

    You call for the hard punishment of a crazed shooter it's fine. You call for the hard punishment of a mass of criminals that violate US law every day and you're a "racist".
  15. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 21, 2002
    Virden, IL
    Folks, if you read the rules, there's no mystery. THR is a place for civil discussion. In the Legal/Political forum, civil discussion of topics related to civil liberties and the politics of gun ownership are appropriate.

    Discussions of who's going to shoot who are not appropriate.
    Discussions of the best order in which to desecrate a flag in various ways are not appropriate.
    Discussions of which THR members are patriots and which are tories are not appropriate.
    Discussions of how much you dislike the Mexicans in your neighborhood are not appropriate.
    Discussions of why everyone who opposes illegal immigration is so bigoted and racist against Mexicans are not appropriate.

    So far, we're getting complaints that we're far too liberal and censoring the anti-illegal point of view. We're also getting complaints that we're far-right shills and censoring the pro-immigrant point of view. That's the best measure of fairness we have.

    There are dozens of places out there to discuss how immigration should be handled, but if you can't keep it civil and focused on civil liberties, it doesn't belong here. Blame whoever you need to blame.
  16. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

    Jan 27, 2005
    At my house
    Thread lock in 5....4.....3....


    The Illegal Immigration issue is hot everywhere, and THR is no exception.

    Some interesting facts...

    1. Illegal immigration is.....ILLEGAL!
    2. The unemployment rat ein the US is at an all-time low of around 3.5-5%, with 3% of the population being un-employable or too freakin lazy to work.

    Some opinions...

    1. Saying "There just here to work" as an excuse for their illegal behavior is like saying "he was just horny" about a rape suspect.
    2. Keeping to "The High Road" is difficult when people so blatent violate our laws.

    more later
  17. Herself

    Herself member

    May 14, 2004
    A lot of things are illegal. It's Ayn Rand time; she wrote, roughly* "The thing to do is pass so many laws making so many things illegal that nobody can get anything done without breaking one or more of them; and then cash in on the guilt!" You have broken one of more laws in the past seven days; if every law was perfectly and universally applied, we'd all do time. Consider all the ways "cashing in on the guilt" is used, both pro and con this issue.

    "Illegal immigrants:" not all of them are immigrating; economically, it makes more sense for many to keep the house and family at home while working in the States and sending money back. Pay is better here and it is cheaper to live there. (Wasn't NAFTA supposed to make that all better? Some fix!)

    Good luck keeping 'em out. Look to the Berlin Wall for an example of the sort of price/performance tradeoff we can expect. And are you willing to accept the inevitable changes in society that will result from a closed border patrolled by a large force of guards with orders to shoot to kill? This kind of behavior does not occur in a vacuum. Just as the explosive growth of SWAT teams has resulted in increasingly militarized police forces with an ever-growing "us vs. them" attitude towards the citizens they are sworn to protect, we would see grim spin-off from a fortified, militarized border.

    I do not have a solution. I don't claim there's no problem. I simply note that some of the proposed solutions are at least as bad as the problem.

    * I like Atlas Shrugged but it will take all day to track this quote down. If you want to find it, read the book yourself!
    Courtesy of Zundfolge's sig: "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt."
    Ayn Rand
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2006
  18. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

    Jul 10, 2003
    Oh yeah...un-High-Roadish...

    You mean like immediately locking a thread wherein all I posted was a link to a Reconquista web site wherein a group of protestors took photos of themselves expressing their real beliefs in the streets of Dallas?

    My post had no profanity.

    It was linked to an actual site.

    However, pictures that Mexia.org protestors took of themselves expressing their ideas that Texas is still actually part of Mexico, and that all the "Gringos" should be shipped back to Europe, and that the southwestern US should be subjected to a "reconquista" were apparently not very "High Road."

    Of course, concern about a radical group of foreign nationals inside the country whose blatantly-expressed goal is to transform a part of this country into some other country has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with "civil rights" in the US.....:rolleyes:

    Yeah....got it......"Un-High-Roadish."

  19. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 29, 2002
    Evidently you haven't read and/or posted on a lot of forums. For it's size, THR is one of the most hands-off forums I've ever seen.

    Now you're just being silly. Trying to draw some sort of comparison between the moderating styles of THR and DU is the most patently absurd thing I've heard all week.

    If they're all locked, then start a new one. But must we have a new thread everytime somebody crosses the border illegally? It's tiresome and annoying to open up L&P and see fifty threads about the same topic.

    If you're so unhappy with THR and the way that it's run, you're free to stop posting and go find a different forum. No one's holding a gun to your head. The internet is a big place, and there are thousands of other forums.
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 26, 2002
    Just my $0.02 as a mod and not the "official" position at all...

    As somebody who shut down a fair number of those threads, I would point out that at one time we had TEN active threads on illegal immigration just on the front page. This is a primarily a firearms discussion forum and some of the links to "civil liberties" have been tenuous at best.

    There are no shortage of places people can discuss illegal immigration on the Internet. It can be, and is being, discussed here; but let's use some common sense. If there are already five threads open on illegal immigration is a post titled "Mexican Flag Thrown In Face Of Hispanic By Gringo" adding something valuable to the discussion of civil liberties?

    I'd also like to comment on the disgusting use of phrases like "Bush-lackeys" and "Democraps" to refer to your fellow members on this board. I've always thought of THR as a friendly and informal discussion in somebody's home. I assume the person I am talking to is a friend. I don't go looking for reasons to be offended and if I can interpret something two ways, I use the interpretation that is the least offensive. I certainly don't consider it civil to use offensive terms to describe people that you know are in the room with you.

    It seems lately that the friendly, informal discussion is getting crashed by a lot people who do not share these values. Get this through your head, THR is seeking a certain type of discussion. If that discussion isn't your cup of tea, then do the polite thing and find a place that better suits you. While THR is a warm and welcoming place, I would much rather see rowdy guests kicked out permanently than see the discussion get nasty - and if anybody asked me, I would certainly support asking a bunch of people to leave the party right now without any further warning.
  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    0 hrs east of TN
    The problem with this discussion and many others that are not directly related to RKBA is that we have a wide range of potentially polar positions represented. Everyone here is part of the "firearms community" and we're all in the same ballpark about the 2nd being an individual right that reduces the range of disagreements to how we achieve the same goal.

    Then we have issues that L&P deals with. If it's not a direct gun issue then we've got full range opposition possible. Fine, part of why the place is here is so that those issues can be discussed. But they have to be discussed instead of descending into name calling (both personal and race/ethnicity) and threats. Passions can run high on issues related to immigration, but the place is called The High Road and when the debate descends into name calling and threats the discussion has run off "The Road" altogether.

    Some folks can't control themselves in a discussion, but this isn't some smoky bar with alcohol lubricating the brakes. We can sit here and type our thoughts and then cut the text and paste it into Word, or whatever you use, and let the spell checker fix our hurried typing. If we can do that there's no reason at all we can't take a look at how we're expressing ourselves before we put it on The High Road.
  22. Biker

    Biker Member

    Mar 10, 2005
    In all honesty, I have to say that THR is moderated better than any other board I've visited which is why I spend most of my time here. I don't like the fact that so many threads concerning immigration are shut down, but in fairness, it's usually because some of us respond to particular posters who, I believe, are deliberately *trying* to get the thread shut down.
    They usually accomplish their goals.
    Oh, and guilty as charged.:eek:
  23. The Drew

    The Drew Member

    May 9, 2005
    Central Pennsylvania
    Let's put all this into perspective for some people, Illegals undercutting minimum wage and taxes is good for corporate profits... Therefore republicans don't want to fix the problem.

    Illegals are just poor mexicans to the democrats who want to hand them a piece of bread and some free healthcare so that if they find a way to get registered to vote, they will vote socialist er, democrat...

    There are a few "rogues" who actually want to stop illegals coming into the country, but not enough.
  24. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Terlingua, TX; Thomasville,GA
    Mr. Pearson, I believe I called for one topic in a thread, not one and only one thread on the subject of illegal immigration. Question: Why would I bother to ban somebody who's said he no longer wants to post here? :D

    Funny. Yesterday, I had a PM from a member who called me a wimp for not locking threads about illegals. Now I'm "Great Mod Eatman" because I did.

    Don Gwinn is right: We're doing a good job. :D

    If we stay with one topic in a thread, the thread then doesn't resemble a third-grader's story about a bar fight.

    You'll notice that in general my remarks at closing have to do with members' rudeness and discourtesy. They speak to thread drift. My comments also speak to providing some new information or insights into the problems, and polite discussion thereof.

    We don't convince fence-straddlers in gun issues that we're real and worthwhile people and not knuckle-dragging Neanderthals with commentaries indicating we'd go to shooting and killing anybody who's illegally crossing the Border. The purpose of THR is not to prove that Sarah Brady is correct about us. Why be her willing asistant?

    There's nothing at all new about our demanding that posts be polite and courteous. Nothing new about avoiding foul language, insults and sarcasm. Just because a topic is a "hot topic" is no excuse for acting childish.

    Enuf. I'm going back to my coffee and house chores.

  25. erik the bold

    erik the bold Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    Middle of the Mitten, Somewhere' Nort of Hell
    In many areas of the country, the UE rate is quite low. Try to view that v/s the "rust belt" areas where the rate is 7-8% and rising because all the manufacturing jobs have already gone South and overseas. No wonder people are becoming so vocal on this issue.........
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