Open to comments on Beretta 92 Series

[Obsidian]

C. Are .mil or ex military with little or no love for weaponry to begin with..

Hmmm. Rather all inclusive with that statement with out justification. Here I had been a Direct Support repairman and Armorer for the Army for several years. I tend to love weaponry, so that really is inaccurate.

However having repaired many hundreds of them, and serviced several thousand I can offer some insight in to the finer workings of this pistol.


For a shooter, it shoots well. I would say it shoots as instinctively well for non proficient new shooters as well as the vaunted 1911A1 series. It is very forgiving in the accuracy department.

Reliability.. This is where I will kick up a dust storm. When its kept free of dust and grime and the like, including the overuse of oil or getting it wet it is flawless till high round counts. However having seen many, many cracked locking lugs to outright failures it gives me pause.

As to the cracked frames you have heard about, yes it was related to very hot ammo in some high round count guns. All current incarnations of the pistol have an addition to the frame and the slide on the left side of the pistol to the rear that looks like a big circle. That was added to keep the slide from embedding in to your forehead if it fails.

For a military side arm it is what it is. I think that perhaps there are better tools for the jobs at hand, but they are serviceable enough. And the Army does keep floating proposals to adopt a different pistol/caliber round.

My personal misgivings however have to do with failures of springs, broken firing pins and other problems. I've seen the trigger bar spring lost more times than I can count, as well as that spring itself failing. Just a bent up piece of wire. And for a weapon that is shot little in the military, compared to a rifle, the M9 is serviced at a much, much higher percentage than the M16/M4.

Now again, yes the over all percentage of malfunctions due to bad parts is low compared to the body of how many I saw for yearly services. But it is high enough that I have some serious misgivings in recommending one.
Does that make it a bad weapon to use? Not necessarily, but I've had enough experience with them to say I would not go for it myself. But as you see in this thread, many many people swear by them.

Shooting them as others have stated is rather easy and it is easy to shoot them well. I would classify them as I would not recommend anyone to purchase them. But I would not say not to buy one either if that makes any sense to anyone. I'm not against Beretta at all with this either, I like a lot of their products and they are all engineered well.

Just my thoughts and observations on this.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Spend enough time with a handgun, and you get to see it's weak points. Not that much time yet with a Beretta, but I have had enough with the 1911A1 .45 to see loose plunger tubes wedge the safety up, front sights fly off, firing pins & springs crack separate, and firing pins & retainers flatten enough to bind the firing pin at the rear. ALL guns have some weak points, or are fired enough to develope some. I think if you are under 5000-7000 rounds for a handgun, you can easily justify selling it, and buy a new one of the same, to stay topside of wear and tear deterioration, much as some buy a new car every couple of years. You get the best of the best, and do not have a gun, or car, break down as soon or often. The depreciation/loss can be written off to "self defense" appropriations.....after all, what is your life worth? It's when we get sentimental over a "tool" that it bothers us. A military "operator" would probably be happy to get a sidearm upgrade every few years. Allow for break in, and you are ready to go again.

 

[38sp4life]

The Beretta 92 is a amazing gun. I love everything about it. I can feed it 124 gr. reloads and factory fresh rounds and it does not care. I love my revolvers more but if I shoot a semi auto that is the one I use most.

 

[Paul7]

Update on my new Italian 'problem' 92FS: 100 rounds of Federal and Tula through it yesterday with no issues. I'm thinking it was the spring needing breaking in as some here suggested.

It sure is accurate. I like the big grip some complain about, it seems to soak up recoil pretty good.

 

[38sp4life]

Paul 7. What I had done with a brand new semi, is to load the clip with the nunber of rounds it calls for. Let it sit for a week or two then take the rounds out and let it sit for a week. This will streatch the spring and it be able to be accomadate the loading of rounds for the range or home. I hope this helps you. And enjoy that 92.

 

[Chindo18Z]

The only people who really don't like the Beretta 92 series handguns have.
A. Never owned one.
B. CCW every day and the guns are just a bit too large for that.
C. Are .mil or ex military with little or no love for weaponry to begin with.

I really don't like the Beretta 92.

A. I own one (and have owned several since the 1980s). My first 92 live-fire was in 1983 ( 2nd JSSAP XM9 test guns). I've been issued one continuously since about 1993 (I was equipped with the 1911A1 prior to that).

B. I've CCW'ed the M9 for extended deployments to the Middle East, Europe, & Africa. It's a large envelope for the 9mm and just generally a big pistol for concealment...but CCW is doable with the right holster & clothing selection. I've carried one for a civilian CCW on occasion, but usually have left it at home in favor of other (smaller) weapons.

C. I'm .mil and have always enjoyed firearms.

I tend to keep a 92FS at hand so that I always have a copy of my issue weapon to practice with, but over the years, I've frequently sold or traded my Berettas anytime I wanted to buy something else. Inevitably, I just get another one so that I have something to fill the approximately $500 worth of M9 holsters I own.

I'll echo Obsidian's observations. It's a functionally reliable handgun but susceptible to mechanical parts failure (locking block, trigger spring, trigger return spring) with high round count usage. My unit shoots more 9mm out of Berettas than any equivalent sized element in the US Army. We break a lot of them. On the other hand, at more modest usage levels, the weapon will reliably feed and shoot anything you can stuff into the chamber, delivering decent accuracy under all environmental conditions.

I've had M9s break on me or my people (usually in my presence) on every single combat deployment I've made since the mid-90's. The three parts listed in the paragraph above were the culprits for about 98% of those hard broke failures.

Since we aren't going to get rid of it anytime soon, I've simply grown accustomed to accepting the mechanical roll of the dice represented by the M92. That and I keep personally purchased spare parts handy. And I carry an issue 1911 or Glock whenever possible.

My current "personal" M92FS hasn't given me a lick of a problem, but it's still at a relatively low round count. I'll probably keep it. I've got all those holsters...

BTW: for those who are not familiar with what we are describing when discussing broken locking blocks...

Imagine the broken chunk (one of the locking block lugs) separating at the instant of firing/recoil and being jammed hard into your rails somewhere under the forward part of the slide. This is something you clear with a shop vice, a mallet, and a prying tool. If you are fortunate, there isn't any catastrophic damage to your aluminum lower and rails. More frequently, the gun is screwed and requires a trip back to the factory or depot level maintenance. If you are attentive and lucky, you might detect a hairline crack in the block while you have the weapon disassembled for cleaning. More often, it simply lets go (without prior visual warning) while you are firing.

Just something to think about.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Why doesn't the Army just replace the locking block as scheduled bi-annual maintenance, possibly along with those springs? Kind of like replacing batteries in your smoke detector.....

 

[Chindo18Z]

We do.

It's a built-in design flaw, regardless of generation of locking block or adherence to maintenance schedules. The guns just don't hold up under extended hard use.

 

[easyg]

The Beretta is not a bad gun, but it is big, bulky, and heavy for a 9mm pistol.

 

[Screwball]

It's a built-in design flaw, regardless of generation of locking block or adherence to maintenance schedules. The guns just don't hold up under extended hard use.

Tell that to guys on BerettaForum with well over 100,000 rounds through their 92s.

A locking block is a replaceable part. Saying a gun doesn't hold up do to them breaking would be along the lines of criticizing every design since spring fail in short order.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Tell that to guys on BerettaForum with well over 100,000 rounds through their 92s.

Yeah...I was waiting for that kind of inevitable reply.

Tell ya what...

Tell that to several of my guys looking at their broken Berettas after just a few thousand rounds fired in a week.

Tell that to an organization (mine) that fields, maintains, and employs over 10,000 Beretta M9s with multiple millions of rounds fired annually.

Saying a gun doesn't hold up do to them breaking would be along the lines of criticizing every design since spring fail in short order.

It would be more along the lines of me saying that I'll sell you a sporty car that gets great gas mileage, has plenty of looks and power, seats your whole family, and is thousands cheaper in price than the competition. Just one little thing...at speeds above 70 mph, the front wheels occasionally disintegrate...but don't worry...they're replaceable.

I criticize Berettas because they have broken significantly more frequently than any other military pistol I've ever used (as a shooter, as an instructor , and as a combatant). Unfortunately, that's been common knowledge in my organization for many years. YMMV.

All pistols can break. That's an individual state of affairs that any firearm is subject to. When an entire fleet develop a reputation for regularly doing so, I take specific notice.

 

[Screwball]

Yeah...I was waiting for that kind of inevitable reply.

Tell ya what...

Tell that to several of my guys looking at their broken Berettas after just a few thousand rounds fired in a week.

Tell that to an organization (mine) that fields, maintains, and employs over 10,000 Beretta M9s with multiple millions of rounds fired annually.

Not for nothing, but unless you can attest for each pistol's regular maintenance, it doesn't mean much.

If those pistols are running the same recoil springs for 10,000 rounds, a broken locking block is a good thing compared to detached frame rails. A block is cheaper than a barrel or entire pistol, isn't it?

Maybe you should be looking more critical at the maintenance of the pistol instead of the design.

It would be more along the lines of me saying that I'll sell you a sporty car that gets great gas mileage, has plenty of looks and power, seats your whole family, and is thousands cheaper in price than the competition. Just one little thing...at speeds above 70 mph, the front wheels occasionally disintegrate...but don't worry...they're replaceable.

Not really. Again, there is a maintenance schedule that goes for springs and alike. If you don't rotate the tires, and have the wire showing on each of the front tires, is that the design when tires blow out at high rates of speed? It is not like locking blocks are going at a high rate, being if they were, the military would have got rid of the M9 by now.

Problems are coming up with the M249s, being most are starting to show their age. You think a handgun is any different?

I criticize Berettas because they have broken significantly more frequently than any other military pistol I've ever used (as a shooter, as an instructor , and as a combatant). Unfortunately, that's been common knowledge in my organization for many years. YMMV.

All pistols can break. That's an individual state of affairs that any firearm is subject to. When an entire fleet develop a reputation for regularly doing so, I take specific notice.

Then please, show us some numbers on failures. I know you wouldn't be able to do this, but a list of maintenance for each pistol that failed would also be beneficial.

I only state that because I see two possible routes. Either they are passing their service life due to lack of maintenance (or are just old, as what occurred with the 1911) or there is an overgeneralization going on.

 

[Stony Lane]

I use a Beretta Elite II in USPSA, IDPA and Steel competitions. I've fired thousands of rounds - my guns are well maintained. The only failure I've had is the trigger return spring (in practice) due to many more thousands of dry-firings. Before each shooting season I replace it.

("Felt recoil" on the Beretta is less than my XD's or M&P.)

See this video, he has fired MANY thousands of rounds more than me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs&feature=player_embedded

 

[Chindo18Z]

Chindo18Z: It would be more along the lines of me saying that I'll sell you a sporty car that gets great gas mileage, has plenty of looks and power, seats your whole family, and is thousands cheaper in price than the competition. Just one little thing...at speeds above 70 mph, the front wheels occasionally disintegrate...but don't worry...they're replaceable.

Screwball: Not really. Again, there is a maintenance schedule that goes for springs and alike. If you don't rotate the tires, and have the wire showing on each of the front tires, is that the design when tires blow out at high rates of speed? It is not like locking blocks are going at a high rate, being if they were, the military would have got rid of the M9 by now.

I said wheels (metallic)...not tires. You do magna-flux the wheels on your vehicle weekly don't you? You do replace them every six months don't you? Sure you do.

Screwball: I only state that because I see two possible routes. Either they are passing their service life due to lack of maintenance (or are just old, as what occurred with the 1911) or there is an overgeneralization going on.

They have indeed passed their service life and not for lack of maintenance. The military actually has a robust maintenance mechanism. For instance, my unit retains the services of highly experienced civilian contract gunsmiths and assigned MOS Armorers, providing an on-site gunsmith shop and parts. We are fairly ruthless in both inspection and scheduled parts replacement. Nevertheless, the weapons fail. Just unlucky that way, I guess.

As to overgeneralization...if you look over this multi-page Beretta gush-fest...you'll notice only a couple of contradictory opinions. You might want to file away the info from those rather than discard the observations out of hand.

The Beretta's problem is METAL FATIGUE on certain parts. Those parts are poorly designed for extended high-round count use. Frankly, the reason the military did not notice for many years was that the guns were not shot very frequently (a couple of hundred rounds per year). When training paradigms changed, we discovered that the M9 wasn't a weapon for high round count usage. DoD had to order half a million new ones precisely because the original fleet (procured late 80's through early 90's) HAD worn out and it was easier/cheaper to replace them with new ones than get increased funding for a new design of pistol. USSOCOM was well along the road to replacing ours with a different pistol back in 2004-2005, but the money dried up...so we are stuck with them.

I have been shooting and carrying the Beretta professionally for 28 years in an organization that owns many, shoots them a lot, and has a better than average idea of what works, what doesn't, how to keep tools working, what the competition uses, and what constitutes adequate performance for our purpose. In my outfit, I'm one of the instructors and training managers for that weapon system.

This thread asked for comments on the 92 series and I've offered mine. I stand by every observation I have made.

 

[Whiskey11]

I wonder if the locking block problem could be resolved by better materials...

For the civilian shooter, I think it is a great gun. Changing locking blocks, while annoying and pricey, happens infrequently enough. Even at the rate of over a thousand rounds a month, we are talking about 2.5+ years of use before on is recommended to be changed. You will have already replaced the recoil spring some 6 or 7 times and probably a few other springs as well.

I still stand by my choice in it, even if it means my XD gets very little love now.

 

[Zundfolge]

Chindo18Z, what currently made handgun do you think would outlast the Beretta?


Also what would you guess is the average round count on these failed M9s?

Is this a common problem only after X number of rounds or are they failing right off the get-go?

 

[Dogguy]

I like the Beretta. What's not to like? It's Italian, sleek and beautifully made. But it's big. It has known mechanical weaknesses (as detailed above as well as in numerous sources elsewhere). SIGs fit me better. I don't own a Beretta.

 

[Shipwreck]

Changing locking blocks, while annoying and pricey

The locking block kits can be found for $35 - For almost the past year, that's been the cost. They may go up again, but they can be found for cheaper than the $60+ that some places still charge. Beretta USA was selling them for 1/2 price for a long time.

 

[Shipwreck]

Yes, here: http://www.berettausa.com/products/92/96-locking-block-kit/

 

[Chindo18Z]

From Zundfolge:

Chindo18Z, what currently made handgun do you think would outlast the Beretta?

In no particular order (and based upon personal experience and observation):

1. Well for starters, the several hundred issue M1911A1s in my unit arms rooms have already wildly outlasted their newer M9 stablemates. Those M9s have already all been replaced due to wear and tear since their original issue during the early 90's. The GI 1911s simply Soldier on...

2. Any all-steel BHP

3. Any Glock

4. CZ-75 / 85

5. SIG 228 / M11 (we use them side-by-side with the M9)

6. Any HK USP variant

7. Springfield XD

8. Zastava CZ-99

9. SIG 220

**10. (S&W M&P w/ caveat)

** I would be willing to bet my money on adding the S&W M&P to this list based upon anecdotal evidence, but I do not have any significant trigger time with the weapon, nor have I encountered it in a military setting. Time will eventually tell.

Also what would you guess is the average round count on these failed M9s?

Average of ~5K (no guess); a few have let go as early as 2500-3000 rounds; many more last well beyond the 5000 or even 10,000 mark. In one battalion I was assigned to, we simply replaced every single M9 annually. Old guns sent to depot, new guns shipped in as replacements. Our standard for locking block replacement became set at 2500 rds. During one nine month period, we suffered 47 broken locking blocks out of 83 weapons assigned to my company. And we weren't even close to being the element that fired the most rounds per weapon, per year.

It's not a law an immutable of physics dictating that all M9s disintegrate at a certain round count...it's just an observable trend (over 15 years) that 15%-20% of the weapons will crap out during high round count training workups. This is merely an annoyance on a home station flat range...less so when it happens to you while deployed to a hostile fire zone. Which has happened to my guys (on mission with me) on several occasions in Bosnia, Africa, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Spare parts (and entire spare weapons) are problematic when you are living in a remote cave-complex along the even more remote Waziristan border (which I did).

Is this a common problem only after X number of rounds or are they failing right off the get-go?

Occasionally right off the bat. More often somewhere to either side of 5K by up to several thousand rounds.

For more reading on the topic, here's an old thread from over at TFL, including a locking block poll, where 14 (18%) out of 76 users of civilian model Beretta had experienced locking block failure; also some additional decent photos:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386334&highlight=chindo18z

Bear in mind that I think the Beretta would be one of the worlds all-time greatest handguns...if a few parts would hold together more reliably. Other than that issue, the Beretta 92 has everything going for it (with the possible exception of size for shooters with small hands). It's accurate, functions in all environmental conditions, delivers high capacity in a controllable package, feeds just about anything you can stuff into a magazine, delivers bomb-proof safety features for expert and idiot alike, and generally "looks" sleek and efficient. Beretta is a quality manufacturer. It's an easy gun to love until you turn over the log to see what's beneath.

Today there are aftermarket springs available that virtually eliminate the trigger spring / trigger bar (return) spring foibles. Unfortunately, DoD has not incorporated them into the repair system. The latest generation of locking blocks last longer, but the fault is still not eliminated. The weapon continues to feature the over-sized flange on the hammer pin because very occasional slide separation is a fact...not a fantasy. And for financial reasons, the military elected not to go with the humped reinforced Brigadier slide that Beretta came up with to prevent that catastrophe.

I remain conflicted about the pistol. My heart (and hands) tell me to embrace it. My actual experience with the weapon leads my brain to wonder what the hell someone was thinking when they equipped our entire force with it. I would never recommend it today as a departmental or organizational weapon. And yet, with proper attention to round count and parts, I feel it makes an excellent self-defense weapon for the civilian user.

I'm sorry if I'm goring someone's ox, but members deserve to read more than unicorns and rainbows...

 

[Whiskey11]

When I said pricey, I meant overtime if you keep it that long and shoot it that often.

I would be curious to know why there are so many failures at 5000 round mark for .mil m9's and at a much higher round count for civillian owned ones. I would also be intersted to know how the plastic buffer in the m92a1s changes the number of rounds down range prior to failure.

I'm aware that .mil 9mm is like +p loadings for us, but why wouldn't beretta take that into account and compensate for it with stiffer recoil springs and better materials.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Whiskey11: I'm aware that .mil 9mm is like +p loadings for us, but why wouldn't beretta take that into account and compensate for it with stiffer recoil springs and better materials.

I dunno...and you got me. But keep in mind that the Beretta was adopted during a Cold War time frame where the average expected round count for a pistol was measured in mere hundreds of rounds per year. At that rate, just about any pistol could be expected to last for many decades. Regardless of the military service life specifications called for, it was doubtful that any pistol would actually approach max round count during its first few decades of service...by which time everyone involved in the procurement process would be safely retired.

As we entered a renaissance in offensive pistol usage (CQB, transition drills, etc.), we found that the widget we had purchased didn't actually measure up to vastly increased levels of firing. On the other hand, I've been through shooting schools and train-ups using ancient UK SAS issued Browning Hi-Powers where we fired the exact same ammo (in quantity) with no issues whatsoever.

Defense procurement is, as they say, a "Low Bidder" game. We bought lots of things during the Cold War that were guaranteed to work...but didn't. Anyone remember the M561 Gamma Goat? The M231 Port Firing Weapon?


On a more positive note, a number of years ago, when I first began looking for civilian market replacement locking blocks, they were all in the $70-$80 range and Beretta USA didn't offer them. Now they do (and at a reasonable price of around $35).

 

[Tom609]

I'm very pleased with my 3 year old 92fs and have put 3625 rounds through it to date. Except for a box or two of store bought ammo early on, it has been fed a steady diet of 124 grain Lead RN bullets powered by 3.5 grains of Bullseye. It has not once jammed or failed to fire. For me it's strictly a range gun and a pleasure to shoot.

 

[mr.scott]

I don't have a Beretta or even a Taurus. I have the ATI C92.
It's a Turkish made, Beretta 92 Centurion clone and it has been flawless. Shoots like a dream. I'm better with this $300 gun than I am with my $750 HK P2000.

The only drawback is ATI is worse than Ruger with all the dang roll marks and warnings on the gun.

Even the finish is as good as the beretta.

 

[jackpinesavages]

If you can get one reasonably, find one of the Italian made 92s. Big difference in trigger and overall action feel. Great pistols.