Vern Humphrey
Member
But I support legalized open carry, in case my coat or shirt tail rides up.
Open vs. concealed carry
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mljdeckard
Member
Mostly no. I carry open when I am out in the wilderness, which happens more often lately. (This is a good thing.) The other night I got home from playing out in the desert and my wife asked me to run to Taco Bell, so I jumped straight in the car and did, I still had my 1911 on my belt, but it didn't matter since I never got out of the car.
I am in support of boldy and proactively exercising rights in general, but there is a practical limit. Utah's gun laws are on possibly the most positive trend in America right now, and the last thing I want to do is to remind all the hemp-wearing bleeding hearts in Salt Lake City that they forgot to notice when we passed the last couple of rounds of positive gun laws. There are guys in there way too concerned about other issues who don't have time to worry about gun laws, and I don't want to give them a reason to.
I could be walking down 400 South in Salt Lake past the coffee shops with the 1911 in the open, waiting for the light to change, and the white guy with dreadlocks and the Bob Marley t-shirt might ask me; "Hey man, why you gotta pack heat here?"
"Why not? It's legal, constitutional, and common sense."
"Dude, you guys with the guns are going to kill someone!"
"That is highly unlikely, but thank you for your concern."
Then he sees an editorial in the City Weekly about how Utah has become a savage territory with all the gun laws, and that a state senator is introducing legislation similar (but improved) to Montana's proposal to manufacture and keep automatic weapons within the state, keeping them out of the federal interstate commerce clause. There will be a protest at the capital or Liberty Park or somewhere that they all congregate. He wasn't going to go, but NOW, he has a reason to. HE has been awakened the same way I HAVE in the last 15 years. Someone who wouldn't normally care is now paying attention.
I DON'T WANT HIM TO. I want him to stay asleep, and not even know what Utah's gun laws are. What HE doesn't know won't hurt ME. To pretend there are no negative consequences to carrying open is disingenuous.
I am in support of boldy and proactively exercising rights in general, but there is a practical limit. Utah's gun laws are on possibly the most positive trend in America right now, and the last thing I want to do is to remind all the hemp-wearing bleeding hearts in Salt Lake City that they forgot to notice when we passed the last couple of rounds of positive gun laws. There are guys in there way too concerned about other issues who don't have time to worry about gun laws, and I don't want to give them a reason to.
I could be walking down 400 South in Salt Lake past the coffee shops with the 1911 in the open, waiting for the light to change, and the white guy with dreadlocks and the Bob Marley t-shirt might ask me; "Hey man, why you gotta pack heat here?"
"Why not? It's legal, constitutional, and common sense."
"Dude, you guys with the guns are going to kill someone!"
"That is highly unlikely, but thank you for your concern."
Then he sees an editorial in the City Weekly about how Utah has become a savage territory with all the gun laws, and that a state senator is introducing legislation similar (but improved) to Montana's proposal to manufacture and keep automatic weapons within the state, keeping them out of the federal interstate commerce clause. There will be a protest at the capital or Liberty Park or somewhere that they all congregate. He wasn't going to go, but NOW, he has a reason to. HE has been awakened the same way I HAVE in the last 15 years. Someone who wouldn't normally care is now paying attention.
I DON'T WANT HIM TO. I want him to stay asleep, and not even know what Utah's gun laws are. What HE doesn't know won't hurt ME. To pretend there are no negative consequences to carrying open is disingenuous.
General Geoff
Member
You are of the opinion that keeping people ignorant is best. I would counter that keeping people ignorant is what got us this deep in the first place.
You can't just half-educate people though, you have to set the entire record straight. Only when one sees the whole picture, does one see the puzzle for the portrait it creates.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Not so long ago, there was an anti-gun campaign with the theme, "There are states that have laws that say the police can't stop people from carrying guns!!" Apparently that campaign hasn't gained any traction because too many people live in states with shall-issue laws and know nothing bad has occurred as a result.
Educating the public through experience is a tried-and-proven way to break down anti-gun bias. The more experience the public has with honest citizens carrying guns, the less likely they are to be taken in by antis preying on the ignorant.
mljdeckard
Member
I disagree. The lack of activism and attention on OUR part is what got us the 1994 ban. I absolutely think we should use the opposition's complacency against THEM. I see no reason to jiggle sleeping bottles of soda.
Bob R
Member
<<<<<< Sitting on the couch with NavyLT
bob
bob
ezypikns
Member
Make whatever statement you want,......
educate whenever or whoever you may.
I made the serious decision to carry a firearm in public to protect myself and those dear to me.
If by doing so, I make a statement for the RKBA, that's all to the good.
But I reiterate: That is NOT why I made the choice.
educate whenever or whoever you may.
I made the serious decision to carry a firearm in public to protect myself and those dear to me.
If by doing so, I make a statement for the RKBA, that's all to the good.
But I reiterate: That is NOT why I made the choice.
riverrat373
Member
You know, if we all spent as much time writing our representatives in congress as we do arguing amongst ourselves, we could probably eliminate half the gun laws on the books!
ezypikns
Member
Wise words.......
indeed.
indeed.
Where I live open carry is not permitted, and an awful lot of the populace would repeal the concealed carry law if they could. I believe that if open carry were lawful and practiced it just might push us past the tipping point and result in the loss of all carry privileges.
That would not be the case everywhere, of course.
It seems to me that common sense would tell us that many perps will choose someone else as a target if they see someone carrying a gun.
Again using common sense, it seems to that other perps may see a possible opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one. The man with the gun will probably be rather alert to this possibility, however, and if not, he sure as heck should be.
Where the man with the gun is likely more vulnerable, again relying on common sense, is in the rare instance of his unwittingly walking into the stop and rob, bank, etc. during the commission of an armed robbery. Think about it--a very desperate, frightened man or two with gun in hand, possibly under the influence of more than adrenaline, suddenly sees a man who could end it all for him right there. Think about it. Doesn't common sense say that there's a pretty good chance that he would shoot?
That's a pretty serious risk, but a more likely one, in my view, involves the man who has just been seen carrying openly, and who is then observed heading from his vehicle into an establishment in which firearms are not allowed.
Any guesses on where a really good place to obtain a gun might be?
Frankly, I have enough concern about people breaking into my car without making them an offer they cannot refuse.
I carry concealed. I would like the option of being able to move my shirt aside in a casual, non threatening manner should the need for simple deterrence materialize. Seems to me that that could diffuse a problem before it becomes one. Can't do that now.
That would not be the case everywhere, of course.
It seems to me that common sense would tell us that many perps will choose someone else as a target if they see someone carrying a gun.
Again using common sense, it seems to that other perps may see a possible opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one. The man with the gun will probably be rather alert to this possibility, however, and if not, he sure as heck should be.
Where the man with the gun is likely more vulnerable, again relying on common sense, is in the rare instance of his unwittingly walking into the stop and rob, bank, etc. during the commission of an armed robbery. Think about it--a very desperate, frightened man or two with gun in hand, possibly under the influence of more than adrenaline, suddenly sees a man who could end it all for him right there. Think about it. Doesn't common sense say that there's a pretty good chance that he would shoot?
That's a pretty serious risk, but a more likely one, in my view, involves the man who has just been seen carrying openly, and who is then observed heading from his vehicle into an establishment in which firearms are not allowed.
Any guesses on where a really good place to obtain a gun might be?
Frankly, I have enough concern about people breaking into my car without making them an offer they cannot refuse.
I carry concealed. I would like the option of being able to move my shirt aside in a casual, non threatening manner should the need for simple deterrence materialize. Seems to me that that could diffuse a problem before it becomes one. Can't do that now.
kda
Member
I'm from AZ and I agree ... Open carry is not as common as I expected. I think I read that we had 125,000 folks with current CCW permits in AZ. I saw the age breakdown too and was surprised at how many "seniors' are taking the class, going to the range to qualify, passing the tests and earning their permits. And the percentage of mature adults doing so in on the rise. They show up at the range and practice too. Lots of folks appear to be tired of being a victim.
The few times I've seen an AZ "citizen" with an 'open carry', no one actually paid any attention to them ... or at least there was no negative attention. Those who noticed most often just pointed out the person carrying to their wife / husband or friends in their group. Then everyone went on about their business.
I rather wish more folks would open carry. But perhaps if they did, some of the retail outlets that tolerate CCW and very limited open carry would begin to fear that a store full of armed customers would turn off "sensitive" customers and even drive them way. At that point the retail stores could post signs "No Firearms Allowed on the Premises." and then those who carry would have to go back to their vehicle and lose the weapon, or slip into CCW mode and do their shopping.
In AZ, if a business post such a sign, you are expected to comply or be at risk of "trespass". But if you are CCW (and not open carry) ... then when while you are still technically trespassing the risk of consequences quite small. And you don't have to leave a weapon out in a blazing hot vehicle.
I'm sorry. I didn't elaborate.
Allow me to, please.
Do I think that a potential robber SEEING a person with a gun could be a deterrent? Definitely.
Do I think that he will just shoot someone carrying openly and proceed with the robbery that he had planned? No, I don't.
Do I think that would-be robbers see a uniformed cop or guard and put off their crime for another place and day? There's no question. That could be as much about the uniform as the gun, but either way, I'm certain it's a deterrent.
Do I think that an armed robber walking into a crowded fast food joint, nervous and maybe hopped up on speed will see my gun in the crowd BEFORE he pulls out his and tries to rob the place?
(This scenario is from a news report in American Rifleman's Armed Citizen section, I did not invent it. Armed robbers do try to rob Burger King -- and they're the STUPIDEST robbers, too, no doubt.)
No, I don't think he'll necessarily see the gun on my hip BEFORE he starts the robbery.
And there's the rub. If he doesn't see it early on, it can't possibly be a deterrent.
If he sees the gun once the robbery is in progress, a nervous robber might well open fire at me, and in a crowd of innocent people, before I ever get a chance to draw it. THAT is when I'd be a target. Question that if you want, but that's the scenario where I'd become a target in my opinion.
If my gun is hidden in my pocket holster, I can decide if and when I'd shoot, and draw without attracting undue attention. This could well save lives: mine and the innocent bystanders. I want the tactical advantage to be MINE, not the robbers.
So, in crowded places, I am far more likely to conceal.
Elsewhere, I do think my gun would be a deterrent more than a danger. Maybe I'm wrong about that, too.
My point is just this: OC might well be a deterrent, but ONLY if a would-be criminal sees the gun BEFORE he decides to commit the crime.
NavyLCDR
member
Bob R said:
Can I have some of yours? I ran out!
22-rimfire
Member
If open carry was more accepted, I might well carry one on my belt (police style). It's a lot more comfortable to carry in a belt holster unconcealed. More than likely, it would be semi-concealed. In the woods, I usually have one in a belt holster as I don't expect to see anyone that doesn't have a gun with them.
SpotlightRanger
Member
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2009
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- 56
hmmm... but it seems that is what has almost happened. This seems quite an emotional topic. I wonder if there is any meaningful data to back up the emotional positions of various posters.
I want to apologize to most of the posters to this tread. I really didn't want to start a $$$$ storm, i was just curious. no more, no less.
Some very passionate opinions have been voiced, but there has also been a fair amount of B.S. I suppose that is to be expected.
Since it seems that this thread is only going to start going around in circles i'm asking the mod's to please close it. Thanks for all the constructive opinions.
Some very passionate opinions have been voiced, but there has also been a fair amount of B.S. I suppose that is to be expected.
Since it seems that this thread is only going to start going around in circles i'm asking the mod's to please close it. Thanks for all the constructive opinions.
NavyLCDR
member
"Hi. My name is John, and I open carry."
"Hi John."
"Hi John."
I can't be talking guns out in front of the grocery store, the sporting goods store or the grainge all day. I have errands to run, so I go CCW.
Heck, I talked to a fellow enthusiast for darn near an hour since both of us were buying ammo.
blah blah, gun, blah blah, subsonic, blah blah silenced, blah blah...me drooling and listening to the gunsmith I stumbled into. Blah, blah blah, over my head that one, way over... blah....I was late back from lunch. Worth every minute, nice to meet a like minded guy and leave all grins.
Been watching the laws the past decade or so, we have been changing them. I particularly like the ability to carry in a National Park riding on credit card legislation. Think that happened because the gun crowd can't get it done?
Heck, I talked to a fellow enthusiast for darn near an hour since both of us were buying ammo.
blah blah, gun, blah blah, subsonic, blah blah silenced, blah blah...me drooling and listening to the gunsmith I stumbled into. Blah, blah blah, over my head that one, way over... blah....I was late back from lunch.
Worth every minute, nice to meet a like minded guy and leave all grins.Been watching the laws the past decade or so, we have been changing them. I particularly like the ability to carry in a National Park riding on credit card legislation. Think that happened because the gun crowd can't get it done?
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hometheaterman
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,115
I don't really mind if someone open carries nor so I mind if they carry concealed or don't even carry at all. It's their choice. If I don't like it I don't have to be around them. They shouldn't have to change what they are doing as long as it's legal just because others don't like it.
As far as to why would you open carry? Here you can't legally carry concealed in any restaurant that serves alcohol. However, you can open carry. So instead of going unarmed some just open carry.
You also can start open carrying here at the age of 18. However, you have to be 21 to apply for a concealed handgun permit. So That's 3 years that someone may open carry. I don't think they should have to go unarmed with the right to defend themselves just because they aren't 21 yet. If they want to open carry I have no issues with it as long as they are responsible about it.
There are plenty of reasons like that as to why someone may open carry. They may just not have a concealed permit and may be waiting on it. Or they may not have a good holster to carry concealed and not feeling like wearing a heavy jacket in the 100 degree heat so that it's concealed. There could be a ton of reasons. I see no problem with open or concealed carrying as long as it's legal in your jurisdiction.
As far as to why would you open carry? Here you can't legally carry concealed in any restaurant that serves alcohol. However, you can open carry. So instead of going unarmed some just open carry.
You also can start open carrying here at the age of 18. However, you have to be 21 to apply for a concealed handgun permit. So That's 3 years that someone may open carry. I don't think they should have to go unarmed with the right to defend themselves just because they aren't 21 yet. If they want to open carry I have no issues with it as long as they are responsible about it.
There are plenty of reasons like that as to why someone may open carry. They may just not have a concealed permit and may be waiting on it. Or they may not have a good holster to carry concealed and not feeling like wearing a heavy jacket in the 100 degree heat so that it's concealed. There could be a ton of reasons. I see no problem with open or concealed carrying as long as it's legal in your jurisdiction.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Once again, police not only carry openly, but also wear uniforms so they're easy to spot.
So if perps see an opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one, why are the streets not littered with dead cops?
moooose102
Member
other than from the "gustoppo" police, i do not see any "trouble" happening from open carrying. it would take a big set of kahuna's to walk up to a person with a gun and try to take it from him. i am sure it has happened, but i do not see it happening very often. i have no problem with open carry. personally, i would like to see more of it.
christcorp
Member
I open carry sometimes out of convenience. Usually when in the woods, hunting, or working around the ranch. Many people carry openly in these situations and it's not uncommon to see someone in town open carrying on their way to the hardware store to pick up supplies or a similar errand that they are on. It is not common to see someone in a suit or normal office type worker walking down the street open carrying. That's usually an ego thing and someone trying to look cool. Not that it's against the law; it's not; just that it's not normal in the day to day activities. Sort of like it's NORMAL to wear a bikini at the beach, but seeing the same girl in a bikini down town walking around just wouldn't be normal. Legal? Yes. Normal? No. But our state has a very high amount, compared to other states, of concealed carry permits.
Do I prefer concealed carry more than open? In town, not in transit from working outdoors or other outdoor activities; yes I prefer concealed. If the law said ONLY open and NO concealed, then criminals would know exactly who had a defensive weapon and who didn't. If the law said ONLY concealed and NO open carry; then the entire population POTENTIALLY could be carrying, so criminals have to be a lot more selective. However; such a law would be a big inconvenience for those who carry a gun, but because of the activity they are currently doing, a concealed weapon is a PITA. Having a law that says YES open carry and YES concealed carry is best for everyone. However; at least our city/state/culture where I live uses practical and common sense approaches. I truly do not know one person from around here that when you ask; "Why do you carry" (Open or concealed); EVER says: "Because it's my right" or "Because I'm allowed to" or some other similar ego answer. Usually, if the subject came up, the answer would be more in the line of: "For protection against moron criminals" or "Against coyotes on the ranch" or Other defensive purposes. And that's exactly what a gun is supposed to be used for (When it comes to carrying it). And maybe that's why we don't have a lot of open carrying in situations that just don't seem normal. I guess that's why we don't have a lot of women wearing bikinis when walking down town. Open carry when it's practical. Concealed carry when it is more practical. Pretty common sense.
Do I prefer concealed carry more than open? In town, not in transit from working outdoors or other outdoor activities; yes I prefer concealed. If the law said ONLY open and NO concealed, then criminals would know exactly who had a defensive weapon and who didn't. If the law said ONLY concealed and NO open carry; then the entire population POTENTIALLY could be carrying, so criminals have to be a lot more selective. However; such a law would be a big inconvenience for those who carry a gun, but because of the activity they are currently doing, a concealed weapon is a PITA. Having a law that says YES open carry and YES concealed carry is best for everyone. However; at least our city/state/culture where I live uses practical and common sense approaches. I truly do not know one person from around here that when you ask; "Why do you carry" (Open or concealed); EVER says: "Because it's my right" or "Because I'm allowed to" or some other similar ego answer. Usually, if the subject came up, the answer would be more in the line of: "For protection against moron criminals" or "Against coyotes on the ranch" or Other defensive purposes. And that's exactly what a gun is supposed to be used for (When it comes to carrying it). And maybe that's why we don't have a lot of open carrying in situations that just don't seem normal. I guess that's why we don't have a lot of women wearing bikinis when walking down town. Open carry when it's practical. Concealed carry when it is more practical. Pretty common sense.
dirt_j00
Member
It only took four pages for the topless/bikini argument to arise.
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