opinions about Massad Ayoob

[JohnKSa]

In a life and death struggle, if you think about being sued, your helping the guy trying to kill you.

Actually, if you're thinking about being sued, it's not a life or death struggle and thinking about being sued is probably exactly what you need to be doing.

Besides, from what I've read by M.A. he mostly pushes pre-preparation, not in-depth self-examination at the moment of truth.

Some of his stuff is good, some not so good. A good bit of it is oriented towards making you think about things that most people don't think about until AFTER they're in a jam. I think that's good.

Elmer,

Try to become a nationally recognized expert witness--you've got a pen and ink. Get back to us when you've made it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Personally I would be turned off by someone with that much ego-power coupled with his presentation "style" (or lack thereof). Any good he might have to offer I would discount to nothing. Fortunately there are trainers out there who are probably every bit as good and lacking the objectionable bits. For someone who can look past the faults then great. But for me it would be a waste.

 

[buzz_knox]

Well, that's your loss. But I'd suggest actually training with him before condemning his style "or lack thereof." Mas may have a lot of issues, but there's a lot of good information that comes through. And there's as much self-depracation in his humor and comments as there are ego boosts.

I will say this, though, about the comments of Mas being an equal opportunity offender in terms of his comments. During 7 days of classes taught personally by him, he ragged on lawyers (which the lawyers in the classes did as well), he ragged on cops (again, accompanied by the cops in the classes), Jeff Cooper (in the context of a demonstration, followed by a lecture on how you had to train with Cooper as he's the one the grand master of the field and if you didn't train with him, you were missing out on a chance of a lifetime), and himself. He made no derogatory remarks based on race, religion, sex, creed, whatsoever.

 

[The Rabbi]

As I say, there are many trainers out there. I am sure most of them are excellent. But different students will be motivated by different styles and I think if someone has an issue with Ayoob's style he would do better going elsewhere.

 

[buzz_knox]

True, but I don't know of anyone else who teaches what Mas does. The general rule is that if you want to learn how to shoot, you go to Smith, Awerbuck, Farnham, Cooper, etc. If you want to learn when/why to shoot, and what to do before and after, you go to Ayoob.

 

[Sleuth]

Many, many years ago, I had a personal conversation with Mas. He told me he used to write for the Karate Magazines, and then he found the gun "rags". He would get a gun, write a positive article about it, then write another article for another mag calling it junk (under one of his other pen names), get paid for both, and keep the gun.

His police career has been with tiny departments, where he rarely made an arrest. How tiny? 3-5 officers. HIs shooting awards are equally dubious. He used to claim to be the New Hampshire State PPC champion. One time, at the Nationals, I asked some officers from NH about that. New Hampshire does not have a state championship. Mas invited some officers to shoot with him. He beat them, and declared himself state champ. He did the same by shooting non-competative guns in big matches, and later declaring himself the winner of a non-existant catagory (as in 2" revolver champ at the XXXX Bianchi Cup).

I have attended one of his lectures, and found him a poor lecturer, unskilled, and a waste of money.

And I write for several magazines (always under my true name), and am a certified expert witness in two Federal Districts and one State.

I feel that Mas is 90% bombast, 10% real.

 

[Arc-Lite]

Personally, I don't care much about anyones opinion on a brand of weapon, if he won or did not win a match...or his skill as a speaker....I was there for some new info....which I got. My liking him, or his language was not the question...nor the reason for my being there.

 

[El Tejon]

buzz, no remarks as to race or ethnicity? He didn't tell you about the "Syrian manual of arms" for AK47s?

 

[Anthony]

Take it from those of us who have actually met the man and taken a class from him. I took LFI-I from him in 1999 and my shooting ability went way way up as a result. Further his legal advice is extremely good. I've spoken with a local judge and an assistant DA off the record about some of his opinions and they concurred heartily.

In the 15 to 20 years of reading Mr. Ayoob I have found him to be one of the most helpful and dedicated instructors I have ever had in any subject. He stays in the classroom well after class is dismissed until the last student's question(s) has been answered. He returns my calls within a couple of days after six years to answer questions for me. When he has an opinion that is proven wrong he admits it repeatedly teaching what proved him wrong.

He has often suggested that the student TRY his technique before condemning it with the understanding that it works for him but may not work for anyone. As Mas and I are of the same height and general build, his techniques and ideas have always worked very well for me. In fact, I cannot think of a single technique I have learned from him that did not work very well for me.

Bottom line, the only reason I have not returned to LFI is finances. Once that is stabilized I am going back for several classes.

I cannot recommend him highly enough.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Please don't get me wrong! I think Ayoob's LFI-1 is one of the bestest classes out there. It is jam-packed with information you simply are not going to get anywhere else. Every spare second of the class is positively crammed with useful knowledge, provocative ideas, and simple things you can do right now to protect yourself if you're ever involved in a shooting.

That it comes wrapped up with foul language is unfortunate, but I'd hate to think anyone missed out on the good stuff because of it.

Pax --

I understood that you felt the class was worthwhile depite the language and off-colour humour.

I would have walked out and demanded a refund. You just saved me the hassle of a wasted day, and arguing about the refund. As I said -- if I want to hear street talk, I can step out onto the street. I refuse to pay for it.

 

[30 cal slob]

The Center of Mas

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Makes me think his heart ISN'T in the right place, after all. <grin>

 

[svtruth]

pax

Your clear, reasoned, calm responses are an example to us all. Often when I post here or elsewhere, I think; WWpS, What would pax say?

 

[Sleuth]

I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!

I would not pay to take a course from someone who so ignores basic safety rules. Too much risk of having the instructor shoot me by accident.

BTW, he also was (at that time) eager to get into a shooting.

In my opinion, there are many, many others who teach the same basic techniques without the profanity and with professionalism. You are, of course, free to spend your money as you wish.

 

[pax]

svtruth ~

Thanks. You made my day.

pax

I can live for two months on a good compliment. -- Mark Twain

 

[otasan]

Since 1980

I've known him since 1980. He is a good writer and pin shooter.

He used to live in NH before his divorce from Dorothy Ayoob. I think that he hangs his hat in FL.

I don't know if he is still a part-time captain with Russ Lary's Grantham, NH PD. Not likely if he is in FL.

 

[ACP230]

I used to see him shoot at Second Chance.
He's a good shot with handgun and shotgun.
I've got a couple of his books and found them helpful and interesting.

Should have taken his class back when it was offered closer to home.
Didn't have the cash then. It's farther away and more expensive now and I still don't have the cash.

 

[logical]

I've not taken any of his classes, but I think I'd get tired of him pretty quick based on what I've heard. People in his "profession" need to stand out to be noticed. You can stand out by being many things...being more profane and crude than the average guy is one of the easier routes. To each his own.

I have heard he keeps a Seecamp .32 under his toupee though.

 

[Jeff White]

Sleuth said;

I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!

You witnessed this???

Jeff

 

[No_Brakes23]

I read a lot of Ayoob when I was a kid, (Dad had the stuff lying around.) Something about his writing just didn't seem right. Couldn't really put my finger on it, it just brought out the skeptic in me, even at 10 years old.

But it seems like he is full of good advice, so why throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. I am not going to ignore good info based on his interpersonal oddities, or desagreeable prose.

One thing to keep in mind is that he has been writing for so long that perhaps his work should be viewed within the context of the time in which it was written. Not to say it isn't applicable today, just that something written in 1970 might not account for a few variable that exist in 2005.

Ayoob is at the very least worth reading.

 

[logical]

It has never and will never cease to amaze me that people will suggest that being offensive, bigoted, or using slurs is somehow OK as long as you do it to many different groups. Think about how absurd such an arguement is.

 

[Specialized]

Answer, Mr. Sleuth?

I neglected to mention the time he was speaking at a Law Enforcement Instructors confrence. In order to demonstrate a point, he reached under his jacket, drew a LOADED gun, and swept the 20-30 instructors in the room at point blank range. Pucker factor of 9.9!
[...]
BTW, he also was (at that time) eager to get into a shooting.

I have to agree with Jeff White on this one, these claims are more than just a little incredible to me. Your posts appear to contain a fairly intense dislike of Ayoob. What you are asserting does not make sense.

Ayoob is an extremely conscientious gun handler, for one. I have seen him handle a loaded weapon in various settings (training, competition, etc), but never in an unsafe fashion. As for your statement about Ayoob "looking for a gunfight", I find this to be totally unbelievable. This guy's father, and grandfather, both had to take a life in self-defense in their lifetimes. A prominent part of the LFI-I classroom session finds Ayoob relating these facts, and his fervent desire to never be put in that position, as the guiding factors in his selection of his life's vocation! Do you expect me to believe that a guy with his history, training, and body of work is actually looking for a gunfight?

I'm including a bit I wrote in another post because I think it applies here, and because I'd like to leverage it to ask Mr. Sleuth to kindly divulge his real name to the readers of this forum so that we might judge his qualifications and body of work in the gun-writing arena as an apples-to-apples comparison to Ayoob's:

As an aside: there seem to be a fair number of people who are convinced that Massad Ayoob is some sort of total sham, with various reasons being given for this opinion. Given what I know of his background, what I've seen of his standing in the legal, law-enforcement, and military training arenas, and what I know of him personally through his classes and my own interactions with him in social, competitive, and professional settings, I find opinions of this ilk to be baseless and a total pantload. His qualifications on paper can be found here ,
and his writings and the writings about him and his expertise are known and well-respected by experts worldwide. Whether one likes it or not, he enjoys the reputation as one of the preeminent voices of truth in the areas of forensic investigation and legal ramifications of force-on-force encounters. Having said that, I believe what he, his colleagues, and other training professionals always say: each instructor/pundit/writer's opinions are just that -- opinions -- and should be weighed against other learned opinions and one's own world view. As an example, many people are fervent believers in Ken Hackathorn's wisdom, but many think that his drills are unnecessarily and unjustifiably reckless. Does that nullify his opinions, or his experience, or his ability to teach?

Maybe those who feel they know better, or feel they have to trash someone personally and repeatedly (something I was told was not allowed on this forum, by the way) in this public venue, might like to publish their own curriculum vitae and body of work so that we might objectively judge the veracity of their opinions in a like manner?

Special Note to Hawkmoon: Ayoob's use of street vernacular and off-color language is well-documented, and his stated reasoning (in the classroom portion of LFI-I) is that offended sensibilities tend to cause one to hesitate -- and hesitation during an armed confrontation is a bad thing. That said, if you do not wish to hear such things in the course of your training, may I recommend you look into classes at the Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, OH. John Benner and his instructors are consummate professionals, and are polite and patient almost to a fault. They also are up there with the best I've seen at showing their students how to survive such confrontations. Their facilities and hospitality are second to none.

 

[Legionnaire]

I've taken LFI-1 and LFI-2, early in my handgunning days. I thought LFI-1 was a great introductory course in its five day format: lots of good stuff on the judicious use of lethal force, and enough shooting to get me started. I thought Mas put on a good show.

LFI-2 was okay. Some more good shooting stuff, and good intro to handgun retention, disarming skills, etc. But I wanted to learn to shoot better and faster, and decided not to pursue LFI-3.

Since my LFI courses, I've taken classes at Insights and Storm Mountain. Instructors at both schools speak highly of Mas WRT the theory of lethal force. At this stage, my recommendation to new shooters is to take Mas' three-day "Judiciuos Use of Lethal Force" course--the lecture portion of LFI-1--and then take an intro shooting course from a "shooting school." On the lethal force question, I don't think you can do better than Mas. But there are better "shooting" courses out there.

All that said, put me in the camp that likes Mas. I enjoyed the classes I had with him and my interactions with him and others in my classes.

 

[Group9]

I don't agree with every single thing he says, but based on years of reading his articles and comments, I think I would like to take a course from him.

 

[XLMiguel]

IMO, one of many contemporary 'authorities' worth studying. All 'n all, I like him and I think he has a lot to learn from. "In the Gravest Extreme" should be mandatory reading for anyone contemplating a carry permit for the first time.