Opinions on 'Field' shotguns being used for Home Defense?
- Thread starter CoyoteSix
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Fot the Bad guy just looking down the bore of any Shotgun, thoughts of why did I mess withthese folks quicklly cross their small minds!
Nothing gets the attention that a Shotgun demands!
Sure there are limitations of manuverability and magazine capacity but the idea of the shotguns potential is oftrn enough.
If you have just one gun, then think over your options and how to apply them in various situations.
No warning shots.
Yes your hunting gun may be used!
BPDave
Nothing gets the attention that a Shotgun demands!
Sure there are limitations of manuverability and magazine capacity but the idea of the shotguns potential is oftrn enough.
If you have just one gun, then think over your options and how to apply them in various situations.
No warning shots.
Yes your hunting gun may be used!
BPDave
mpia,
I agree with everything except the "Could you shoot a 16 year old in self defense" question. Age is/should be a non factor in SD/HD situations. Otherwise, spot on. Training and competence with a firearm and a scenario are more critical when the time comes than "what's the best gun for....?". The "best" is easily answered by: "What gun do you own, that's capable of handling the "scenario", that you are most competent with?".
That being said, if the OP is not activly seeking out the intruder and is merely protecting/covering one area from a fixed position, just about any shotgun up to and including a punt gun would work.
I agree with everything except the "Could you shoot a 16 year old in self defense" question. Age is/should be a non factor in SD/HD situations. Otherwise, spot on. Training and competence with a firearm and a scenario are more critical when the time comes than "what's the best gun for....?". The "best" is easily answered by: "What gun do you own, that's capable of handling the "scenario", that you are most competent with?".
That being said, if the OP is not activly seeking out the intruder and is merely protecting/covering one area from a fixed position, just about any shotgun up to and including a punt gun would work.
I house carry my Glock 27 almost all the time, That along with an amazing Streamlight Polytac handlight.
I'd feel much more comfortable with a long gun than my Glock though in a HD situation.
Also, aren't many Turkey guns rifled? If my Newbie mind is correct wouldn't standard shot pattern horribly out of a rifled Bbl?
LeonCarr
Member
The Turkey Thug would be an excellent choice for home defense.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
toivo
Member
+1 on a pump with an extra barrel. I found that it was cheaper to buy a "field" model of the gun and then add a "defense" barrel than to buy it the other way around. Also, many of the defense models have an extended mag tube and can't take the field barrels. Something to consider.
mgkdrgn
Member
yep
the diff between one of those and a "tacticool" shotgun won't make a wit of difference to the BG on the wrong end of it at 2:45 am.
mr.trooper
Member
Got a Benelli Nova 24" that pulls double duty just fine.
Very suitable for HD. Not long ago local shop had Pa. A.H. Fox A grade two barrel set. Second set of barrels which was numbered to the firearm was 24" and made at Savage Arms. That gun with low velocity BK in 24" configuration would make an excellent HD gun sort of like Coach or Howdah kind of concept.
Ash
Member
Everything about a field shotgun, except perhaps barrel length, seems absolutely perfect for home use. They are clean. There are no protrusions to snag or grab anything. They are slim and smooth enough that you can grasp and get into position quickly, which is useful either for ducks/geese/dove/rabbit etc that suddenly show up or for a baddie who does the same.
They also carry the bonus of looking "normal" should you have to go after a baddie. It would be best for the responding officers to not see a Tom Clancy Rainbow Six wannabee standing over the bloody corpse of the baddie. They can get the wrong impression. Of course, standing in such fashion is preferable to being the body they discover the next day on an investigation of an open door, but when they show up and the field grade shotgun is standing beside the door, action open, unloaded, it sure looks like an innocent homeowner startled into deadly force by a ne'er-do-well looking to visit harm upon him and his family. An honest rabbit or pheasant hunter who has to perform the dreadful act of home-protection.
For me, my firearms need to be simple and functional without excess bobbles or protrusions. Legions disagree and that is fine, but my family has used firearms in defense many times (my grandfather twice, my mother once, my great grandfather once, the latter involving a justified killing). Coincidentally they all involved revolvers, only one involved firing a shot, none required folding or collapsing stocks, lasers, led lights, heat shields, or the like. My grandfather kept a Remington Model 11 behind the door for animal defense (mostly rabid raccoons but also against armadillos). It was virtually the same as the Savage 720 MachIVshooter has on the first page. That is good enough for me.
They also carry the bonus of looking "normal" should you have to go after a baddie. It would be best for the responding officers to not see a Tom Clancy Rainbow Six wannabee standing over the bloody corpse of the baddie. They can get the wrong impression. Of course, standing in such fashion is preferable to being the body they discover the next day on an investigation of an open door, but when they show up and the field grade shotgun is standing beside the door, action open, unloaded, it sure looks like an innocent homeowner startled into deadly force by a ne'er-do-well looking to visit harm upon him and his family. An honest rabbit or pheasant hunter who has to perform the dreadful act of home-protection.
For me, my firearms need to be simple and functional without excess bobbles or protrusions. Legions disagree and that is fine, but my family has used firearms in defense many times (my grandfather twice, my mother once, my great grandfather once, the latter involving a justified killing). Coincidentally they all involved revolvers, only one involved firing a shot, none required folding or collapsing stocks, lasers, led lights, heat shields, or the like. My grandfather kept a Remington Model 11 behind the door for animal defense (mostly rabid raccoons but also against armadillos). It was virtually the same as the Savage 720 MachIVshooter has on the first page. That is good enough for me.
In all the SD shootings I have read about I dont ever recall pattern being an issue. If you can get the gun in your hands and pull the trigger on the BG before he does the same to you I am pretty sure you will live for another day. Be familiar with the gun and where it is when you need it. Confirm the target and pull the trigger. No regrets or remorse for anyone uninvited
ugaarguy
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We used to drive cars that got 8 mpg and used leaded gasoline. They still got us from point a to point b.
Knowing one's target and what's beyond it is a fundamental rule of firearms safety. White LED lights have become cheap, reliable, and readily available over the last decade. Why handicap yourself by not having such a light on your defensive firearm for target ID?
I was also created with short little T-Rex like arms. Collapsible stocks let me adjust firearms to fit me quickly and easily without permanently altering the gun.
I have tan furniture on one of my rifles as well. Many of my friends think it looks cool. I chose tan over other colors because the lighter color is cool - it's cool to the touch in heat of a Georgia summer.
I really don't understand the resistance so many folks have to practical advances in technology. I understand the sentiment against accessories that added for the sake of making something look tactical or cool. Practical accessories are another matter entirely.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Field shotguns were first one used in defence of the homestead. They still get the job done.
Ash
Member
ugaarguy, would it not be better to have a stock permanently fit to you? It isn't a good idea to stop and try to adjust a shotgun's stock to fit you while a baddie is in the house. Indeed, when you're worried or nervous, that is the worst time to adjust anything. So, you keep it set before hand so you know it will work when desired. Why bother with adjustable at all, then? It would be better to just fit a stock to yourself. After all, who wears adjustable eye glasses? Nobody. They get them fit to themselves.
The car example is very weak. My 1945 Savage 720 is just as effective as any current "tactical shotgun." The power is the same, the shot shells are the same, and the efficiency of fire is the same. Ditto for a modern turkey gun. Your example would better fit were I defending the idea of using black powder Damascus-barreled shotguns or perhaps using Greener-Martini shotguns in 14 ga. I'm not.
The "combat" features generally added to a "defensive" shotgun are akin to spoilers, ground effects, spinning rims, and the like on Japanese compact cars. I'm saying a Toyota Corolla FX-16 was just as effective without those bobbles as it would be with them. I know, I was in a Mustang 5.0 that got beat by one without stuff tacked on. All the other things that make a car "Fast and Furious" are generally a waste of money.
Keep it simple. A field shotgun, particularly with a shorter barrel, doesn't need to be adjusted. If it is yours, it doesn't need an adjustable stock. It doesn't need a heat shield. It doesn't need a pistol-grip only stock (which is really a bad idea in defensive situations). It doesn't need a ghost ring. It doesn't need a bayonet lug. The only point you have in your argument is having a light. The other "features" are, of course this is an opinion and others, you included, disagree, at best needless and at worst things that render the firearm less effective.
The car example is very weak. My 1945 Savage 720 is just as effective as any current "tactical shotgun." The power is the same, the shot shells are the same, and the efficiency of fire is the same. Ditto for a modern turkey gun. Your example would better fit were I defending the idea of using black powder Damascus-barreled shotguns or perhaps using Greener-Martini shotguns in 14 ga. I'm not.
The "combat" features generally added to a "defensive" shotgun are akin to spoilers, ground effects, spinning rims, and the like on Japanese compact cars. I'm saying a Toyota Corolla FX-16 was just as effective without those bobbles as it would be with them. I know, I was in a Mustang 5.0 that got beat by one without stuff tacked on. All the other things that make a car "Fast and Furious" are generally a waste of money.
Keep it simple. A field shotgun, particularly with a shorter barrel, doesn't need to be adjusted. If it is yours, it doesn't need an adjustable stock. It doesn't need a heat shield. It doesn't need a pistol-grip only stock (which is really a bad idea in defensive situations). It doesn't need a ghost ring. It doesn't need a bayonet lug. The only point you have in your argument is having a light. The other "features" are, of course this is an opinion and others, you included, disagree, at best needless and at worst things that render the firearm less effective.
ugaarguy
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Ash, I made the first reply to this thread. That reply was:
As for your other points:
We're in full agreement about PGO shotguns - they do nothing other than hurt your wrist and significantly hinder using a shotgun. I never said anything about "the shoulder thing that goes up" (heat shields) , nor bayonet lugs. Heat shields have that their place, but only in limited applications. A heat shield would only add weight and look silly on a field shotgun. No argument from me on that.
Bayonet lugs? Well I'll play devil's advocate here. I guess if you had a Mossberg 590A1 (or whichever model it is that has the bayo lug - are there any other shotguns currently made with a bayo lug?) you could put one of those bayonet lug to Picatinny rail adapters on it to hold your white light. That's also about all a bayonet lug is good for on a rifle now too - mounting accessories other than bayonets. So, no, I'm not running out to find a bayonet lug I can silver solder onto the bbl of the Winchester 37A single shot that was passed down to me.
Rifle sights are slightly different matter. I'd never put them on a field gun used for birds or clays, but they're right at home on a field gun used for pigs or deer. If I lived or hunted in a state or zone that was shotgun only for big game I'd have an 870 with the fixed mod choke, rifle sighted bbl. Or maybe a rifle sighted, rifled bore, slug bbl. I wouldn't use a shotgun with a rifled slug bbl for HD. However, a fixed mod choke bbl that patterns even cheap buckshot nicely would be a great on a HD shotgun. The factory rifle sights, whether open notch or aperture rear, wouldn't make it any less effective. I wouldn't add rifle sights unless I had a practical field use for them either though.
Overall, I think we're on the same page, and we just had to more thoroughly discuss our similar views on practical vs. tacticool.
As for your other points:
I've been down that route, and it killed the resale value when I had to sell some guns when money got tight while I went through the VA disability claims process. There are other advantages to adjustable stocks, but that's a discussion for another thread. I'm well aware of the deterioration of fine motor skills under stress, when suddenly awakened, when sleep deprived, etc. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I agree that simple is good, and pre-adjusting a stock is pretty simple.
My last two sentences of my last post were: "I understand the sentiment against accessories that added for the sake of making something look tactical or cool. Practical accessories are another matter entirely."
We're in full agreement about PGO shotguns - they do nothing other than hurt your wrist and significantly hinder using a shotgun. I never said anything about "the shoulder thing that goes up" (heat shields)
, nor bayonet lugs. Heat shields have that their place, but only in limited applications. A heat shield would only add weight and look silly on a field shotgun. No argument from me on that. Bayonet lugs? Well I'll play devil's advocate here. I guess if you had a Mossberg 590A1 (or whichever model it is that has the bayo lug - are there any other shotguns currently made with a bayo lug?) you could put one of those bayonet lug to Picatinny rail adapters on it to hold your white light. That's also about all a bayonet lug is good for on a rifle now too - mounting accessories other than bayonets. So, no, I'm not running out to find a bayonet lug I can silver solder onto the bbl of the Winchester 37A single shot that was passed down to me.
Rifle sights are slightly different matter. I'd never put them on a field gun used for birds or clays, but they're right at home on a field gun used for pigs or deer. If I lived or hunted in a state or zone that was shotgun only for big game I'd have an 870 with the fixed mod choke, rifle sighted bbl. Or maybe a rifle sighted, rifled bore, slug bbl. I wouldn't use a shotgun with a rifled slug bbl for HD. However, a fixed mod choke bbl that patterns even cheap buckshot nicely would be a great on a HD shotgun. The factory rifle sights, whether open notch or aperture rear, wouldn't make it any less effective. I wouldn't add rifle sights unless I had a practical field use for them either though.
Overall, I think we're on the same page, and we just had to more thoroughly discuss our similar views on practical vs. tacticool.
Remember, there are 2 ends of a shotgun. The "send", and the "receive". The person on the receiving end won't be able to tell the difference, but the sender (shooter) might be able to handle the gun more effectively with one gun versus another, thus dictating whether the shot ends up being a hit or a miss--which would actually mean a great deal to the "receiver".
IOW, what matters is how proficient you are with it.
I read an article written by a couple of guys that taught shotgun SD/HD classes (I think it was in guns magazine a few years back) and they said most people showed up to the course with lights, side saddles, slings etc. hanging from their shotguns, but by the time the course was over most of them were always stripped down to a bare shotgun leaving the hollywood stuff at home. Myself I've always considered the advancement in technology of flashligts shining from the end of my shotgun to be a giveaway of position...at least outside the premises. I simply take a flashlight out with me just in case and I don't have to worry about junk hanging from my weapon. I'd be willing to bet that the hardcore bird hunter is better trained with a shotgun than most of the guys teaching HD/SD shotgun classes.
plumberroy
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Exactly on the light, Your in my house uninvited which I can walk through in total darkness (I practice) and a tactical light comes on I will put it out. with buckshot long gun or pistol that won't end well for whoever turned the light on . Bad guy will also have to deal with the dogs not mean but noisy . and they have different bark for my kids the only ones with keys and a stranger My kids also know if they come in unexpectedly to call out as soon as they enter .
Roy
ugaarguy
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That's why you need to understand how to use the momentary on function, move, etc. That's where training comes in. Knowing when not to turn on a tac light is just as important as knowing when to turn it on.
You'd lose that bet, but there's far more crossover between the two than you realize. To your point though, one should always carefully evaluate the trainer's credentials before committing the time and money to attend a course. Don't trust just anyone who's offering courses.
How do you know I'd lose? I mean after all everything in the training is for imagined scenarios. Being a hunter myself I know that when the shotgun touches my shoulder the shot is away and the beast or fowl is dead. All the while manipulation has occurred with every required control on the shotgun and it's back on safe without ever realizing it. Speed is the key and the hunter doesn't teach or practice imagined scenarios as he deals only in reality and his guns are used much more often than people who take SD HD classes. The hunter that also plays on the clays field gets more trigger time and gun training than any other. You never know how someone is going to react in a real situation when their life is threatened, but the hunter and clay target shooter has reaction time down to the T.
I'm pretty sure that if I can manage to peel gray darts outta the sky runnin' 60 mile an hour in the wind without thought I can tag the fellow thinking he can flash a light and then move fast enough to get away...I think he'd need more on his side than training for an imagined scenario.
Who knows for sure though.Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I mean after all everything in the training is for imagined scenarios.
Interesting. Have you ever taken one of the classes? If so, who was the instructor?
Being a hunter myself I know that when the shotgun touches my shoulder the shot is away and the beast or fowl is dead.
And you never miss?
All joshing aside, I definitely agree that hunting - especially quail or rabbit - is good prep for using a shotgun for defense. BUT there are things even the best hunter will learn from a good professional defensive shotgun trainer. I know - I've been there on both fronts, in the field and in the classroom.
Interesting. Have you ever taken one of the classes? If so, who was the instructor?
Being a hunter myself I know that when the shotgun touches my shoulder the shot is away and the beast or fowl is dead.
And you never miss?
All joshing aside, I definitely agree that hunting - especially quail or rabbit - is good prep for using a shotgun for defense. BUT there are things even the best hunter will learn from a good professional defensive shotgun trainer. I know - I've been there on both fronts, in the field and in the classroom.
No, not physically I've just watched a couple dvds and read a few book articles on the subject. From what I've seen I haven't been impressed enough to think it would do me any good.
I have bought some ammo that the factory left out the shot before...and sometimes my reloading press fails to drop the shot.
I understand there is knowledge in every aspect of training and the more training someone has the better off they'll be if or when the need arises, but there are a lot of people out there that have only took a few SD classes and then stick their gun in a corner where it sits collecting dust and I doubt they would have much a chance... say against a burglarizing hunter gone mad.
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