opinions on home defense loads for a .357 mag revolver
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Lovesbeer99
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Andre - thanks for the tests in the various loads. (AT2 videos on YouTube)
I'm really suprised that all the 125gr 357's fragmented like they did. No wieght retention at all. It looks like the test results favor the 38spl +p in the various wieghts or the WWB with the 110gr sjhp.
I'll have to rethink my options.
I'm really suprised that all the 125gr 357's fragmented like they did. No wieght retention at all. It looks like the test results favor the 38spl +p in the various wieghts or the WWB with the 110gr sjhp.
I'll have to rethink my options.
Logos
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Almost all self-defense bullets are a compromise.
Bullets designed for maximum penetration will lack the disruptive power of the more lightly constructed bullets.
Overpenetration means one significant thing--your bullet failed to expand and deliver massive destruction to tissue within the bad guy.
Meaning the bad guy is more likely to kill YOU!
Underpenetration means that if the bad guy is behind a wall or in a car......your bullet may fail to reach him or fail to deliver massive destruction of tissue within the bad guy.
Again.....this means the bad guy is more likely to kill YOU!
Don't be overly influenced by the tests (especially the FBI tests, which clearly overemphasize penetration).
You need to look at all the facts and choose the level of compromise between under and over penetration that suits your needs.
Another thing.....don't be overly concerned about noise and muzzle flash.
The bad guy gets them in his face. They are part and parcel of the damage you are inflicting to take him down. Your hearing will return to normal in minutes.
Bottom line, no one bullet can do it all, but a good 125 grain .357 Magnum is a tried and true compromise that has an excellent record of success in various circumstances.
Bullets designed for maximum penetration will lack the disruptive power of the more lightly constructed bullets.
Overpenetration means one significant thing--your bullet failed to expand and deliver massive destruction to tissue within the bad guy.
Meaning the bad guy is more likely to kill YOU!
Underpenetration means that if the bad guy is behind a wall or in a car......your bullet may fail to reach him or fail to deliver massive destruction of tissue within the bad guy.
Again.....this means the bad guy is more likely to kill YOU!
Don't be overly influenced by the tests (especially the FBI tests, which clearly overemphasize penetration).
You need to look at all the facts and choose the level of compromise between under and over penetration that suits your needs.
Another thing.....don't be overly concerned about noise and muzzle flash.
The bad guy gets them in his face. They are part and parcel of the damage you are inflicting to take him down. Your hearing will return to normal in minutes.
Bottom line, no one bullet can do it all, but a good 125 grain .357 Magnum is a tried and true compromise that has an excellent record of success in various circumstances.
Logos
member
Also.......The FBI went to great lengths to blame a single bullet that lacked only one inch of penetration for a gunfight that went horribly wrong.
All their tests were an overreaction to a tragic incident that should have never happened.
The more significant thing is that this overreaction was part of a denial that their agents were inexcusably sloppy, overconfident, unprepared and careless in the Miami gunfight.
The blame rests with......NOT a single 9mm bullet, but with an amazingly large dose of poor human performance.
All their tests were an overreaction to a tragic incident that should have never happened.
The more significant thing is that this overreaction was part of a denial that their agents were inexcusably sloppy, overconfident, unprepared and careless in the Miami gunfight.
The blame rests with......NOT a single 9mm bullet, but with an amazingly large dose of poor human performance.
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Gryffydd
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And yet penetration is the only way to stop a subject. If you don't reach their vitals you won't stop them. What they realized is that you can't count on a nice open shot at the unprotected chest of your target. Things like arms, thick clothing, car doors, and walls have a funny way of getting between you and your target. Over penetration means one other thing too: a second wound, likely larger than the first, that will increase blood loss. Also, the mere fact that a bullet exits doesn't mean it didn't expand, or didn't do enough trauma. It's like saying that a shot with a 3" exit wound would have been more effective if it had been less powerful so that it didn't exit.
No, the blame rests with both the bullet AND their incompetence. If the bullet had performed better despite all their stupidity that day (and there was plenty of it) the fight still would have been over quickly.
Logos
member
No, that one bullet was used as a scapegoat.
They made a big deal out of that one-inch lack of penetration.
You can say "IF this" and IF that" until the cows come home.....and you'll always find that the little "IF" about that single bullet and single inch was nothing compared to "IF the agents had acted appropriately to the situation."
Excuses, excuses.
So the OP should not overreact to the excuse-making.
They made a big deal out of that one-inch lack of penetration.
You can say "IF this" and IF that" until the cows come home.....and you'll always find that the little "IF" about that single bullet and single inch was nothing compared to "IF the agents had acted appropriately to the situation."
Excuses, excuses.
So the OP should not overreact to the excuse-making.
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Logos
member
Two wounds in the same body after completely penetrating that body?
You better explain that one.
Sounds like a magic bullet.
jfdavis58
Member
I'm a cheap SOB; I don't use or even buy 'premium' ammo. I also don't subscribe to the +p philosophy. I'd keep the Remington 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point .38 spl +p it's historically significant and the Winchester WWB 110gr semi-jacketed hollow point .357 mag---they simply shoot very nice. But I'd keep looking for something in the 125-140grain hollow point 357 range as a home defense load.
FYI, I actually have a 4in GP and have found both 125 and 140 grain bullets in the low end of both the Remington and the Winchester lines that are adequate. The logic is simple and two parted--I can shoot more because they are cheaper and I don't believe in giving my very best to the guy trying to harm me-cheap is more than he desearves.
FYI, I actually have a 4in GP and have found both 125 and 140 grain bullets in the low end of both the Remington and the Winchester lines that are adequate. The logic is simple and two parted--I can shoot more because they are cheaper and I don't believe in giving my very best to the guy trying to harm me-cheap is more than he desearves.
Gryffydd
Member
Are you saying if that bullet hadn't penetrated farther it wouldn't have made a difference? Why can't both be contributing factors? Just because they were also idiots doesn't mean we can't learn anything from what happened. The old saying "Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, and everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins" came around for a reason you know
Yes, they made a ton of mistakes that day. Yes, they never owned up to it. But in the process they also highlighted the need for penetration in self defense rounds.Every time your ears ring you've suffered some amount of permanent damage. Go fire off a hot 125 grain .357 load indoors with no ear protection, then come back and tell us if that's something you ever want to do again when there are plenty of great alternatives.
Seriously? I have to explain to you that when bullet doesn't exit there's only one hole, and when a bullet does exit there's two? Ever heard of an "exit wound" before? Did you know it's not the same thing as an entry wound?
And there are a ton of other tried and true compromises that also have excellent records that don't have the same disadvantages.
That's because if they had just had bigger guns all their stupidity that day wouldn't have been displayed in front of the world
Logos
member
All true, but all of these factors can be handled by a good 125 grain .357 Magnum bullet......plus is will offer huge disruptive force in the far more common self-defense situations at close range with no obstructions in front of the target.
Thus it has a long reputation of excellent all-around performance.
Logos
member
I agree.....that's why I recommend the 125 grain option in the .357 Magnum.
It has sufficient penetration plus excellent disruptive force.
This thread IS about the .357 Magnum according to the original post.
Gryffydd
Member
Absolutely, and that's why I carry them in my 5" GP-100 (Golden Saber handloads at around 1600fps). They really are fantastic stoppers. However, there are other alternatives that have other characteristics which are desirable for the OP's specific use, while not giving up much or anything (this is where the BIG what IF games come in) in terms of so-called stopping power.
Logos
member
I've done it. My ears are fine.
Gryffydd
Member
Ever heard of the boiled frog?
Logos
member
A ton?
Of .357 Magnums?
Show us.
Logos
member
I'm 62 years old.
I doubt that my ears are going to suddenly quit on me.
As I stated, your hearing will come back to normal in a few minutes after an indoor discharge without ear protection.
My hearing is within normal range even after a lifetime of abuse starting with my dad letting me (helping me) shoot a Colt Single-Action 38-40 when I was five years old.
No ear protection.
Today they'd call it child abuse, but we didn't know any better in those days.
Gryffydd
Member
Clearly you haven't heard of it. If you had, you'd know that by definition, "suddenly" has nothing to do with it.
Thank goodness we've progressed since then.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=466310
And what about during those few minutes when you're struggling to hear light footsteps in another room? What if you've shot an intruder with your big magnum, and the other one walks up behind you and smashes you over the head with a baseball bat because you couldn't hear him coming?
Logos
member
You'll have the same problem with any handgun blast in close quarters. Everybody's ears will be ringing for a while......so?
That's just the way it is.
Gryffydd
Member
True, but there are differing degrees. Some will not be nearly so severe as a 125gr .357 Mag. I don't really think I should have to explain that to you.
Logos
member
The "differing degrees" are not enough to matter.
When your ears are ringing from a centerfire handgun blast you are not going to hear well.
I really don't think I have to explain that to you.
And when are you going to show us those tons of better .357 Magnum options you mentioned?
Nothing mentioned in this thread answers that question, so don't try to dodge by linking us back to this thread again.
Soon, I hope.
When your ears are ringing from a centerfire handgun blast you are not going to hear well.
I really don't think I have to explain that to you.
And when are you going to show us those tons of better .357 Magnum options you mentioned?
Nothing mentioned in this thread answers that question, so don't try to dodge by linking us back to this thread again.
Soon, I hope.
Gryffydd
Member
jaholder1971
Member
Of those offered, I go with the 158 LSWCHP +P.
For me, in a GP100, it's Federal 125 grain JHP. It's got the street credibility behind it.
For me, in a GP100, it's Federal 125 grain JHP. It's got the street credibility behind it.
george29
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I don't mean to be cruel, but you really have to try hard to get a bad defense load from a .357
PLenty of good advice here, google Stephen Camp .357, he has many good articles. The firing line forum, etc.
My revolvers are either .22, .38 or .44, my one and only pistol is a .32
.357 is a caliber I once foolishly traded away. I hear that 125gr. JHP will do the job very well but I wouldn't argue with the 158gr SWCHP either.
PLenty of good advice here, google Stephen Camp .357, he has many good articles. The firing line forum, etc.
My revolvers are either .22, .38 or .44, my one and only pistol is a .32
.357 is a caliber I once foolishly traded away. I hear that 125gr. JHP will do the job very well but I wouldn't argue with the 158gr SWCHP either.
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