Order of importance

[amflyer]

I'm either lucky, or too easy to get along with. I've always viewed reloading for my rifles as either a way to shoot a lot more, or been lucky enough to come up with an accurate (enough) round for my needs.

Recently bought a high-quality but apparently finicky 300 Win Mag. So now I need to work up a load to get to the level of accuracy I am after--the gun is guaranteed 1 MOA, for whatever that's worth, but some of my existing loads made for other rifles have been stinkers. 3 MOA or so.

So, when working up hunting loads, do you find more reward in using different powders, or a change in projectiles? As primarily a hunter, I usually choose the bullet I want to use, then work with a couple of powders until I am where I want to be. But perhaps this is not the best.

Will probably use an variation of the OCW method for this rifle, but not really sure where to start.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

In my experience different bullets make a bigger difference in accuracy more often than powder.
Seating depth can make a huge difference with some bullets.

 

[dgod]

I have had great luck 68.0gr IMR-4350, ELD-X 200gr bullets, CCI Large Magnum Rifle Primers. Chrony: Velocity High 3009, Low 2934, Avg: 2964, Extreme Spread 75fps, Std Dev 25fps. 3/4" group @ 100 yds.

Dan

 

[amflyer]

Dan, thanks for the load. Would be chasing some bigger critters; elk or equivalent. Good chance for some closer shooting too...how do the ELD-X's hold together? Also, the bbl is a 1-11". Think those would stabilize?

 

[Varminterror]

I would rank top priority for reloading as a triad of velocity, bullet weight, and twist. That is really a combination of cartridge selection (velocity with a given bullet weight), twist rate, and bullet design (weight and length). If you aren't stabilizing the bullet effectively, then nothing else will matter. Nothing. For me, this is a given, as I make that choice before I ever buy the rifle - I start with my application, then pick the bullet and velocity I want for it, which dictates my cartridge, and my rifling twist - before I even order the action. This makes a HUGE difference in accuracy. I have a supremely accurate 115Dtac load for 243win, in a 1:8" 26" barrel, but in my 1:9.25" 15" Striker barrel, it just doesn't stabilize.

Once the bullet is chosen, you will need to match your powder with your chosen weight class of bullets. Generically, you'll often find a certain powder might be great for a light-for-cartridge bullet, but poor for a heavy-for-cartridge bullet, and vice versa. This is my second largest priority for long range shooting - finding the right powder to be in the right charge weight with my bullet choice. Having a small ES and tiny SD will never make an unstable bullet group well down range (item above), but it's dang hard to make any bullet shoot well if you don't have wildly inconsistent velocities.

Seating depth also can, indeed, cause significant changes in performance, especially dependent upon bullet construction. Personally, I do not believe a jacketed lead core bullet will convert - EVER - from a 3MOA load to a 1MOA load simply by seating depth, BUT, if you use a short jump meant for a cup and core bullet while shooting a mono-metal, you will indeed see poor results, and often vice versa. Mono-metals need a long run in to shoot well, jacketed lead cores do not. But within their type classes, you won't see 10-15thou change in seating depth difference cause 2MOA difference down range. In general, do my charge weight tuning, then tweak the last few decimals with the seating depth. This can improve a 1.5MOA load into a 1.25, maybe a 1.0, or improve a 1moa into a .75moa load, but it cannot fix a 3MOA load down to 1MOA.

All of the above is assuming consistency in components - if you're running mixed brass, you can never expect consistent internal capacity, nor consistent neck tension, so you can never expect consistent precision. This is, again for me, a given. Pulling all of the above together will never produce ideal results if you have wildly different brass, or wildly different bullet weights. BUT... Mixed brass and standard production variances in bullet weights (of same brand & model) will never turn a 1MOA rifle into a 3MOA rifle. The scale of magnitude will generally

If you're getting 3MOA, you're WAY out of the ballpark. Generically, if you have the right powder, a variety of bullets will shoot well (given appropriate jump for each). Equally, if you have the right bullet, velocity, and twist, then a lot of powders will shoot well. But at 3MOA, unless there is something wrong with the barrel itself, you have a gross mis-match somewhere.

 

[amflyer]

I agree about the seating depth and it's effect. This rifle has a very long magazine, and a long leade. The round I pulled "from the shelf" and took to the range was a 180 grain Accubond, set for a short-magazine Winchester M70 set to 3.340". Equated to about .270" off the lands. Still, unless the conc. is way off, there is more to the 3 MOA than the seating depth.

Best grouping was with some TTSX I had loaded for a long-throated Blase R8. Set at about 0.50" off the lands. I, too, have had good luck with the monometals seated short. Shortening the OAL of these rounds (without pulling the bullets, as they were not crimped) worsened the groups.

I like the 180 grain bullets, and usually use RL-22, IMR-4831 and RL-19. All should be good choices with the 300 WM.

Rifle is a Sako 85 Finnlight, weighs about 8.5 with scope. This fact may magnify any benchrest technique problems I have, but I do believe the rifle needs to find it's best load.

 

[Orcon]

If you have a rifle that is proving exceedingly difficult to load for, there is a high probability that there is something wrong with it.

 

[dgod]

Dan, thanks for the load. Would be chasing some bigger critters; elk or equivalent. Good chance for some closer shooting too...how do the ELD-X's hold together? Also, the bbl is a 1-11". Think those would stabilize?

They are very good bullets (Ballistic Coefficients are Quite High, and they fly very well, Hornady designed them for the Hunter that typically shoots out to about 600 Yards. So, I think it would answer the mail. Check out Hornady's site and see what they say they have determined. My Barrel is a 1-10, You might start lower and work up to a solid group. The above is what I came up with, been cautious to try any increase There is a big difference between Off Hand vs Off vs a Lead Sled... One of them will make your shoulder hurt after about 25..

 

[amflyer]

. If have a rifle that is proving exceedingly difficult to load for, there is a high probability that there is something wrong with it.

This is a possibility, but I'm hopeing with only a little more than 30 rounds or so, it's just finicky. With the TTSX's it grouped about 6 into 1.25-1.5" with one flyer that ruined the mood.

So, it at least feels like it's trying to group. Haven't loaded specifically to the rifle yet, just ran some loads for other rifles through it.

 

[Tinybob]

If have a rifle that is proving exceedingly difficult to load for, there is a high probability that there is something wrong with it.

Do elaborate, please sir.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

You've probably thought of it already but in case you haven't, could there be an issue with the scope or mounts?

 

[Orcon]

Do elaborate, please sir.

I have a 300 WSM that was having problems with factory ammo, so I started handloading for it. Some problems were solved by handloading but accuracy was still bad. Long story short, my barrel was loose (like twist it with your hand loose) and it had needed bedding because the inletting was bad and the bottom of barrel was touching the stock halfway down the barrel channel.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time and components thinking I had a "finicky" rifle. Turns out it was just defective in some areas. It shoots 1 inch groups at 350 yards now that all the problems have been fixed.

 

[murf]

Orcon beat me to it. You may have a screw loose on that gun.

murf

 

[jmorris]

If I am shooting a rifle that doesn't seem to like my old standbys I try out a few factory "premium" rounds to test with too.

If there is an accuracy guarantee, you might call them and see with what ammunition.

That's where I would start at this point.

 

[Bart B.]

If have a rifle that is proving exceedingly difficult to load for, there is a high probability that there is something wrong with it.

A poor marksman will also find it difficult finding a good load.

How does one find out which one it is?

 

[wally]

A poor marksman will also find it difficult finding a good load.

How does one find out which one it is?

Find a skilled marksman and let them shoot it. Should give the clue you need figure out if the problem is the gun/load or the shooter.

Edit, I guess that is why they sell things like "lead sleds" to help take the shooter skill out of it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I found out by accident how very important bullets are to accuracy.

I have a load for my .223 bolt action rifle that easily does under 1 MOA @200 yards. It uses a 55gr SMK bullet #1390. I took the rifle out one day and was very surprised when I could not hold 3 MOA with 5 round groups. I was confused until I realized the ammo was made with a different bullet. It was another 55gr bullet and was terrible but that was the only difference.

Yes, bullets will and do make the biggest difference in accuracy IMO.

 

[jmorris]

A poor marksman will also find it difficult finding a good load.

How does one find out which one it is?

 

[Varminterror]

A poor marksman will also find it difficult finding a good load.

How does one find out which one it is?

If you, personally, were to shoot a rifle & load which yielded 3MOA, how would you, personally, find out whether it's the load or the rifle?

 

[Bart B.]

First thing I would do is shoot at least 30 shot test groups with each. Such groups have well over a 90% confidence factor of representing what 2000 shots will do. Ignore tiny groups; they're the results of too many variables cancelling each other out. My objective is to see what all the variables add up to in all directions. Not the popular way of picking the tiny group caused by the variables cancelling each other out for the most part and therefore it's the smallest one.

Shoot another load that's 3/10ths MOA. Or shoot that ammo in another rifle. I've seen that happen many times in my own tests. Bullets need to be larger in diameter than barrel groove diameters for best accuracy. Measure what your stuff is. Check the assembly tolerances of the ammo that doesn't shoot well then compare them to what the barrel's are.

Some loads are 2 MOA at 600 yards. Lake City Arsenal's 7.62 NATO M118 match ammo averaged that at 600 yards in rifles that would shoot commercial Federal or Remington match ammo into 2/3 MOA. The best lots of M118 National Match ammo shot about 1.7 MOA at 600 yards. Replacing its bullet with a Sierra or Lapua match bullet and they would shoot about 2/3 MOA in the same rifle.

US military teams shooting M14NM's would often have two rifles; one with a commercial tight bore/groove match barrel and the other an arsenal NM barrel with big bore/groove diameters. Sierra's bullets at .3082" diameter would shoot very accurate in the commercial barrels with .3078: groove diameters but not in the arsenal barrels with .3085" groove diameters. Arsenal barrels would shoot Lapua bullets at .3092" diameter very accurate.

 

[Varminterror]

First thing I would do is shoot at least 30 shot test groups with each.

Does shooting 30 shots (2000rnd analogy) let a good load show its potential even for a poor marksman?

shoot that ammo in another rifle.

What would you, personally, do if that load shoots 3MOA in the second rifle? Does shooting 3MOA in two rifles confirm whether it's a bad load or a poor marksman?

A poor marksman will also find it difficult finding a good load.

How does one find out which one it is?

 

[Bart B.]

Does shooting 30 shots (2000rnd analogy) let a good load show its potential even for a poor marksman?

Yes, but it also includes the marksman's repeatability. People typically have bigger variables than ammo and rifles do. It's hard to separate them unless the rifle and ammo can be fired in free recoil in such a manner that it's repeatable in hold and aim.

What would you, personally, do if that load shoots 3MOA in the second rifle?

I Would inspect both ammo and firearm for known causes of poor accuracy; the list is long and would take a while.

Does shooting 3MOA in two rifles confirm whether it's a bad load or a poor marksman?

No; Both may be equally bad. Or both rifles bad but the ammo's good. Or both rifles are good but the ammo's bad.

If someone else can shoot that ammo in both rifles under 1 MOA, what does that reveal?

Any component of a system that's bad makes it perform bad all the time.

I had a guy on a rifle team who complained the ammo or his rifle was not all that great. He put lots of shots in the 8 ring at 600 yards shooting slung up in prone. He wanted another rifle or lot of ammo. But I'd watched his use of his trigger finger; it was not good. So I laid down next to him, had him get in position, aim and hold still. Then I slowly pinched the trigger with my thumb behind the trigger guard ind fore finger on the trigger. He shot ten shots in a row all in the 10 ring with him holding and aiming and me pulling the trigger. He learned good trigger control and later was the best on the team. Do you flick your finger off the trigger when it shoots like he did?

Few people figure out how to separate their variables from those of ammo and rifle. Benchresters figured out how decades ago; rest the rifle on bags and barely touch its trigger so it recoils exactly the same for each shot. Then push the rifle back into the exact same position and do it again.

 

[dgod]

Find a skilled marksman and let them shoot it. Should give the clue you need figure out if the problem is the gun/load or the shooter.

Edit, I guess that is why they sell things like "lead sleds" to help take the shooter skill out of it.

If you are 67 and disabled, you need the occasional "Break"

 

[hdwhit]

Varminterror wrote:
If you, personally, were to shoot a rifle & load which yielded 3MOA, how would you, personally, find out whether it's the load or the rifle?

What I did was to ask my retired master machinst father to build an overly elaborate fixture to completely remove me from the equation by immobilizing the rifle.

Turned out to be a combination of me, the rifle and the load. Some refresher training for me, some light gun smithing on the rifle and a little more attention to uniformity of the powder charge got me cutting the bullseye once again.