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Organizing Indiana RKBA

Discussion in 'Rallying Point and Range Discussions' started by txgho1911, Dec 15, 2005.

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  1. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    Found some discussion at PDO (packing.org) a few days ago about groups in Indiana. Seems there is no focus on RKBA issues with any IN clubs or orgs. I am just posting to sound out THR IN members on the subject.
    Focus would be tracking and Lobbying efforts with state senators and reps. Secondary mission would include communication to the various state, county, city gun clubs and other groups who would have concerns. ICLA for example would not be among those I would want to include. There are others more broadly grounded in the realities and constitutional law.

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
    Below posted by minuteman32 PDO
    Letter from my (alleged) U.S. Representative!
    Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXX:

    Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 800, the "Protection of Lawful
    Commerce in Arms Act."

    H.R. 800 seeks "To prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or
    continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of
    firearms or ammunition for damages or injunctive or other relief resulting
    from the misuse of their products by others." On October 20th, this
    legislation passed the House by a vote of 283 to 144 without my support.

    I oppose frivolous lawsuits; however, I do not believe that the judicial
    branch should be refrained from determining the merits of particular
    cases. At a time when more than 30,000 gun deaths occur each year in our
    country, I cannot support legislation that deprives gun violence victims
    of the right to legal recourse and discourages the adoption of reasonable
    safety devices. Additionally, while I believe in the Second Amendment and
    feel that the right to bear arms is a fundamental part of American
    heritage and culture, I do not believe this right is unqualified.

    Statistics indicate that in 2001, 290 Indiana residents died from firearm
    homicides, 21 died unintentionally by a firearm, 411 committed suicide
    with a firearm and 4 deaths by firearm were ruled undetermined. The
    numbers are shocking. Equally devastating is the fact that 59 of these
    deaths were children.

    Again, thank you for contacting me about this issue. Your interest and
    opinion are deeply appreciated and your position highly respected. Best
    wishes.

    Sincerely,





    Julia Carson
    Member of Congress
    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    Bob Crody has run against her for the last 2 or three elections. He just dropped
    out due to lack of support funds and the IN republican party. He has run in the past as Libertarian.
    This past year my own state rep Lawrence Buell introduced and passed law allowing LEO with the right judge ability to play shrink. (my opinion on Lairds law)
    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
    By minuteman32
    .. I would say that we need to organize (ugh, I'm NOT organized)! We could
    schedule a meeting locally to see what kind of turn out we'd have. From there,
    figure out what the ...say... top 3 most pressing concerns we have (which laws
    we want changed, specifically). Have people make lists of who their state &
    federal (for continuity) reps/sens, their phone numbers, addresses, emails (my
    state sens legislative aide uses HERS, not the sens. to communicate as hers
    isn't privey to the press), and schedules as best as can be determined. We
    would disseminate a statement to all in attendance @ the meeting stating the
    law, and what needs to change. We would then start calling, emailing & visiting
    our own rep/sens, as well as others who are interested in the change. The way we
    get that info is through networking. That's how I found out about Rep. Ulmer
    from northern IN.
    .. I guess we could pick a time & place for a meeting and list it here, then
    see if anyone responds.
    ..
    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    I guess some of the biggest points I would like to see in Indiana at the state level would include deleting the grandfather clause in state pre-emption. Add something to insure firearms owners and those with carry permits are not focused on by LEO groups (bigger cities). Maybe define carry in state law as openly in view or concealed in the licensing section.

    Any other Indiana residents thinking of input please chime in and add to this or PM me.

    I wish I had a Jim March or Tim Oliver with us in Indy. I would lie to talk Philip Van Cleave into moving here. He would never get suckered into an Indiana move.
     
  2. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    I think if we started something soon, we'd be in a better position when the next session starts. We'd be more organized and be able to more articulately and persuasively argue our points. We should try to get a meeting time/place set up for .... say... the middle of January, here in the Indy area, and get the ball rolling. What do you think?


    I will review some dates in January that avoid church and other positive obligations. I know my schedule is sunk for some of January. I would look at the last week or the first week of Feb.
     
  3. RandyB

    RandyB Member

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    I would be interested as a fellow Hoosier in any RKBA group.
     
  4. IndianaDean

    IndianaDean Member

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    I'll definitely think about it. My work schedule will preclude it however, I don't have any vacation days to take and it will depend on when it would be scheduled. Sundays through Thursdays would pretty much be out for me.
     
  5. Politicallysober

    Politicallysober Member

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    I would be willing to do this. As everyone knows here it will take a well organized group to have an effect and even then it might not achieve anything. Either way it is something that needs to happen, atleast to get the wheels turning in the minds of fellow hoosiers.
     
  6. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

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    A suggestion: Establish contacts with existing state groups with proven track records. Find out who their main members are. Then ask for advice.
     
  7. Puppy

    Puppy Member

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    Section 32 of the Indiana state Constitution sums it up nicely.

    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State".
     
  8. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    I'm all for grassroots groups. More the merrier! Good luck getting rid of Julia, maybe I should move downtown Indy and run against her. *snicker*:D

    There are groups in Indiana fighting for the RKBA. Perhaps you can join us as well at the Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association.:)

    http://www.isrpa.org
     
  9. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    I'm interested.

    Can you provide some specifics about what you want to accomplish, how you want to accomplish it, and what we all might be able to do to help?

    I think there's a reason there aren't many pro-gun activist groups in IN. Fact is, they aren't needed as much here as they are elsewhere in the country. There aren't a whole lot of gun control laws here. There are even fewer anti-gun politicians, except a few from Gary. And our legislature is pretty ineffective (a good thing, the less laws the better), and hasn't ever had much success at outlawing much of anything.

    Anyway, I'm interested, but I'm still little foggy on exactly what you have in mind. But please keep me posted.
     
  10. dhondo2000

    dhondo2000 Member

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    I'm there, just keep me posted and I will do all that I can to help.
    Thank's!!!:)
     
  11. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    I have a terrible schedule, but i will help if i can.
     
  12. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    Goals

    I guess the best goal I would like to accomplish would be pressure. Some how be a presence the legislators may all realize as a reality. I met my state rep last year in his office and he explained his focus areas. Lawrence Buell told me his concentration would be around business law reform. Well we received a new anti gun law out of that. I understand a whole lot of the reasoning behind Lairds Law but it was passed in the house very easy. I do not like that.
    Another area to gain is refinements in current carry law. Like school function and extending licensed carry to schools for those parents that carry. Pickup the kids sometimes means disarming to get out of your car. Extra handling and leaving the handgun in the car. Also is the grandfather clause for city/county gov regulation of Firearms. Given there are not many City laws to pre-empt it still allows for an irregularity across the state. I would not put it past Bart Peterson to lobby for a special exception for Indpls.
    So many states have made corrections to methods and perception as Indiana as almost stood still. Somehow Indpls crime is on the rise. So many reasons to loosen some strings or broaden the reach of LTH.
    I would like to see Vermont/Alaska carry in Indiana. I know it may never happen. Paper work and the city/county building should not stand in the way of people who want to take responsibility for them.
    Last but not least. Who in Indiana wants better than an f from the brady bunch?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2005
  13. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    I want an F minus!:D
     
  14. Luku

    Luku Member

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    Second admendment groups

    There is one local group here in SW Indiana, the second amendment patriots.
    Here is the web address:

    http://community-4.webtv.net/SecondAmendmentPatriots/2ndAmendmentPatriots/

    As far as changes to state law I would like to see us have unlicensed open carry (including in the glovebox). I also would not mind seeing us dropping th state background check involving handguns.
     
  15. ARperson

    ARperson Member

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    My thoughts on the previous posts:

    First, I like the idea of having an organization dedicated to preserving our rights and fighting ludicrous, feel-good legislation that infringes on our rights. However, I believe we would be better served to expand an existing organization's focus to include protecting RKBA. The Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association is a great start. They already promote the shooting sports, education, etc. All they need is a focus on the legislative aspect. The infrastructure is already there. No need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

    Second, I am wary of bringing too much attention to the legal aspects of RKBA simply because we have it so good now. I completely agree with having a lobbying organization to help fight bad legislation (see paragraph above), but I am concerned about bringing up how good we have it. Putting it on the radar screen may actually backfire.

    I believe this is very possible on the issue of open vs. concealed carry. As the law stands right now, we simply need a permit to carry; there is no restriction on open or concealed. I strongly doubt any attempt to push for unlicensed open carrly will result in success. Lawmakers are not likely to ease restrictions on carrying. And it could easily result in attempts to restrict our rights.

    What I would like to see our efforts focused on is enforcing the "shall issue" aspect of carry permits. I know some areas fall more in line with the "discretionary" characteristics of some states rather than the "shall issue." Ironically, Marion Co. is fairly good. But I know other areas where the Sheriff is not so RKBA-friendly and denies many a qualified applicant because he doesn't personally believe in individual RKBA (or worse, feels that only law enforcement is qualified to have firearms.)

    I'm on board with the idea, but I believe we have to be smart about how we proceed.
     
  16. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    Caution is party

    Losing ground, you say!
    I understand your concerns. This effort will require cooperation from ISRPA and other groups like 2nd Amendment Patriots http://community-4.webtv.net/SecondA...dmentPatriots/
    and others that ongoing are low key and off the radar. Indiana RKBA issues in most of IN appear to be off the radar. Individuals representing many who will not participate in this venture or any other regardless of belief. I am not unwilling to do some homework and so far, I am getting lots to do on this idea.
    Known supporters in the legislators will have to be approached as allies and opponents will require avoidance. We have much to do in every corner of the state.
    To my knowledge to date, I know of no organized and active lobby resistance to the bills introduced annually. So far, they are passively ignored by support in the legislature. I hate the thought of something being passed that negatively affects our individual rights.
    As far as the open vs. concealed status in state law today. This is not off the radar. Bart and IPD administration do not support the law. ISP admins in downtown do not support open carry.
    I do not want to see Indpls and other cities lobby for changes without a challenge.
    Carraway shafted us on the brady check requirements under the carry permit. This one point is not going to be addressed without some kind of pressure in the right places.
    I would like many changes. I would like open carry by a licensee recognized clearly in state law. This would encourage some open carry and also protect the individual who accidentally is exposed with his/her carry.
    For those areas people find resistance in the application process. This process should allow for a choice of chief LEO or directly to the issuing authority. IN is now recognized in TX. This only after this decision power was removed from the TX DPS "state police". ISP may also not be the best agency in IN to manage this program.

    So many issues. The idea of full recognition of individual rights in Vermont or the additional licensing process available in Alaska should be the endgame for these efforts. Not the beginning. Even then we cannot allow vigilance to fail and lose ground in the future after gains are won. Possibly a strike through text of rescinded or changed lines of text in the Indiana law could serve as reminder of history for future lawmakers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2005
  17. IndianaDean

    IndianaDean Member

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    By Ms Carson's logic, any of us injured in a traffic accident should be able to sue the company that built the vehicle that injured us.
     
  18. Jayb

    Jayb Member

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    I think you can carry open in IN. I also think it's not a good idea. Open carry can invite caustic comments, or a 911 call for "a man carrying a gun".

    As an NRA instructor, I think that the carry permit process should be tightened up a bit....... by requiring that appicants be proficient/trained in the use of a handgun. I've seen some real 1st class examples of how to carry dangerously. :eek:

    I also think that as Hoosiers, we need to get together so we can shoot and discuss things. :)

    Jay
     
  19. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    Yeah, we should be required to beg the indulgence of our government, or a trainer selected by our government, before exercising a fundamental human right.

    NRA training is NOT the only way to become proficient with a gun. The fact that a few morons are dangerous without your training doesn't mean that the rest of us are too.

    The idea is to create an organization that increases our gun rights, not one that makes us beholden to some new class of superiors (gov bureaucrats, NRA instructors, or whoever). At least, that's what I hope the goal is. :uhoh:
     
  20. Jayb

    Jayb Member

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    Becoming proficient as a part of CCW would also expand the number of states that have reciprocal egreements with Indiana.

    I don't recall saying that ANY way was the only way to become proficient.

    It's not hardly "my" training. I just happen to think it's better than none. Some self trained shooters are excellent in all aspects of their discipline. Some are not.

    By the way, it's those few morons, and the results of their actions that make it tougher to "increase our gun rights". How does one increase a "fundamental right" as headless puts it?

    Sir headless....... chill out. I'm not sure NRA instructors rate being lumped in with gov't bureaucrats, but if that's your take, you have a right to it.

    I did not intend to re-direct this thread....if my post continues to raise issues, please delete it.

    Regards, Jay
     
  21. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    Sorry, JayB. I probably misunderstood what you were saying. It sounded like you were suggesting more gun control, not less. I must have been mistaken.

    If you want to encourage people to get NRA safety training, I'll help you. If you want to require people to get NRA training, then I'm against it.

    Maybe I'm wrong on this one, I dunno. But it seems to me that adding to the requirements for getting a carry permit is counterproductive. Shouldn't we be working to reduce the barriers to legally carrying a handgun?
     
  22. Jayb

    Jayb Member

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    If one advocates adding requirements to obtain CCW permits just to make the permit more difficult to get, I'm firmly against that. Most of the states that do not have reciprocal agreements for CCW with Indiana, deny those agreements on the basis of training. That's the only point I was aiming for. Sorry if I missed the mark.

    I don't want more gun control, but I don't dance at the thought of "bubba" carrying who knows what just because he wants to. Could be I'm asking the impossible.:confused:

    sorry about the misunderstanding

    Regards, Jay
     
  23. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    More to refine in current law!

    I met a man a few days ago in a gun shop who allowed his carry permit to expire. He was at a DNR range with his family. Being there without a valid license, he was ticketed. I do not know details of the ticket. Judge asked if his gun was confiscated and it was not. Judge stated that it should have been. A new license in hand did not negate the ticket and bias was displayed in his ruling.
    I agree that individuals need to follow the law in how they own/use the handgun.
    I do not agree with the law that barrs or bans the ability for individuals to practice or even acquaint themselves with the handgun they keep at home.
    The qualified license that allows for transport and use at a range facility is a limit I find unreasonable.
    Speaking to a deputy today on general issues concerning a focus group. He couldn't care less. HR218 passed and he has no care about every one else’s RKBA in any fashion. This was not Marion or donut counties. His word on unlicensed transport was locked in a case out of reach should be no big deal. On the above-described case, it comes down to the judge’s interpretation.
    So proficiency it outlawed by state law except for those who get a license. This is too discouraging. There is barley any public facility in Marion County much less Indpls. Would a legislative measure be able to mandate some or any friendly zoning and public use land for a range within 10 miles of the population?
    Should state law require a license to participate in a range day trip for folks who do not carry or transport it at any other time?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  24. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    I will only support an attempt to extend freedom to my fellow citizens, not perpetrate what I view (opinions are like you know what :D) as a fraud on my neighbors. Training is a fraud. It is a use of the law to feather the nests of "recognized" trainers and to erect fences to prevent people from exercising their RKBA.

    I will not consent to attacking the right to bear arms because of someone's feelings. Requiring training for the RKBA is no more valid than requiring a comparative religion class before obtaining your "House of Worship" license.

    I put more trust in "Bubba" from the South or any other immigrant to the state to act safely with firearms than I do the police with all their "training" at the ILEA.

    Jay, fyi, Texas recognized Indiana licenses on November 2, 2005. Texas requires training, we do not, yet they do recognize us (yeah, I know it took me 4 years but got it done).
     
  25. Jayb

    Jayb Member

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    Training is a fraud ?????

    good grief........ I don't have a polite response to that.

    Merry Christmas all
     
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