Oslo incident

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lemaymiami

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I finally got to view the program that the military channel did about the recent attack in Norway... It's titled "90 minutes, Assault on Oslo" and it was pretty well done. They did a step by step of the incident, along with what's been learned of the planning, tactics, etc, by the monster involved. For a public presentation it was fairly low key and kept the emotional component minimized. I'd rate it as worth viewing, particularly for those involved in emergency services or anyone else with similar interests.

Some years ago, well before 9-11, I was very interested in planning for responses to this kind of stuff. My concerns were much more about terrorism with a small "T" since the town I worked for had a fair number of synagogues... Nothing ever occurred so the effort was never needed and I was long out of police work when the strike on 9-11 changed our world (and our world view). I'd like to think that an armed citizen would have ended this monster's attack long before he rolled up a big body count if the incident occurred over here....

One other item of interest.... one of the survivors said that when the police did finally arrive, many victims thought that the gunman had just gotten reinforcements since the shooter was also wearing a police uniform....
 
...that when the police did finally arrive, many victims thought that the gunman had just gotten reinforcements since the shooter was also wearing a police uniform....
Don't think that potential ner-do-wells did not take notice.

While it's nice to think about a legally armed citizen here ending the monster's killing spree, how many good guys w/ a gun are going to shoot a Cop or person dressed as a Cop? Darn few. We've been conditioned, as has the world, to respect that badge/uniform and to fear the consequences of intervention. To... PAUSE. Which would be a fatal error in this case. If said legally armed citizen is wrong, and it IS a Cop that is shot, this too would be a fatal error, more than likely.

Damned if you do, dead if you don't.
 
What I can't believe is that no one turned around and led a charge of angry rock throwers at him. The panicked crowd was literally like lemmings following the leader.
 
Baba you might be right about most not even thinking about challenging the uniform - but after the second, third, or fourth victim I think anyone would have overcome that reluctance.... By the way in a police career that went 22 years I had more than one citizne point a loaded gun my way - and I was in uniform at the time. Most were actually good guys (who either couldn't see very well, or were pretty screwed up one way or the other...) fortunately when challenged they stood down. In some parts of the area I worked in a uniform was actually a target... but that's another deal entirely.
 
Baba Louie some of the mass murders in the world have been committed by police officers.
Both acting in accordance with their duties, and as lone killers.


I saw a video on TV awhile ago of a Russian police officer walking around randomly shooting people.

Police and soldiers commit mass murders too. So it doesn't even have to be someone dressed as the police, sometimes it actually is a cop.
 
The guy with the personally highest attributed confirmed kills, was Stalin's 'personal' liquidations specialist, heard he liked .25's, seems he almost singlehandedly killed the Polish officer core.

Point is, a few guys could have killed this crazy, but instead of manning up and taking this guy out, they cowered in fear and LET themselves be killed.
 
Oh, and read about the Texas A&M bell tower shooter, seems that it was LOCAL CITIZENS (not the cops) who pinned the guy down with HUNTING rifles, while the cops tried to think of what to do.
 
Unarmed kids did not stand a chance against Anders Breivik.

I don't know if you're familiar with the effects of 5.56mm bullets on people or not.
 
The panicked crowd was literally like lemmings following the leader.

Well, the panicked crowd behaved in a somewhat typical mob mentality manner for panicked humans. The lemming metaphor, while graphic, isn't actually based in fact. Thank Disney for creating the misconception.

Oh, and read about the Texas A&M bell tower shooter, seems that it was LOCAL CITIZENS (not the cops) who pinned the guy down with HUNTING rifles, while the cops tried to think of what to do.

Something of another misconception. First of all, it wasn't at A&M, but UT. Lots of people shot at Whitman. Some were civilians, but not necessarily just with HUNTING rifles. For example, Allen Crum's rifle was supplied by a DPS trooper.
http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/specialreports/whitman/crum.pdf
 
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Unarmed Kids

Unarmed kids did not stand a chance against Anders Breivik.

I don't know if you're familiar with the effects of 5.56mm bullets on people or not.

There is a mindset at work here.

If I were wandering among clueless kids who have never had to think about evasion, defense, fighting back, and stuff like that, shooting whoever happens to be in front of me, I'm probably gonna run up a high score of casualties.

If, on the other hand, I were wandering among a collection of gang bangers, shooting targets of opportunity, the response would likely be radically different. There's a good chance I would not get out alive. I would probably score some hits, and then get taken down by a massed attack and have my head crushed by boots and rocks.

Somewhere in between these two extremes would be the kids with whom I went to high school in the mid sixties. Some would run, screaming. Some would freeze. Some would hide. Some would group together and look for a tactical opportunity. I would score some hits, and eventually be taken down.

When you are all alone and confronting a superior force of numbers -- even an unarmed group -- you only succeed to the degree the targets allow you to. If the targets rush you, you will only get a handful of them, and then you're a dead man.

The Norwegian kids had nothing in their upbringing to prepare them for this. At all.

The caliber of the weapon would have been of little consequence if twenty of them had rushed him. But they were not trained to think like that, and had no cultural foundation for it.

They weren't just physically unarmed.

 
Ah, gee's Jerry, he's gonna kill us....

Yeah, guys I hang with would go for the big sticks and heavy rocks, OH

where are the Hatchets (great for hand to hand and throwing too...)
and Ax's and stuff, it's a camp after all....

Yeah, go cower, he'll miss you, maybe, or listen you plea for your life.
 
For those that speculate that the vics had something to do with their own demise.... that's a pretty American point of view. Defiance of authority and the concept of self defense are as American as apple pie... You have the see the video of the killing ground to appreciate that the shooter had every advantage with a bunch of nice young kids that pretty much behaved like rabbits. Once the panic set in the monster took his time and methodically shot just about everyone he had in front of him while many hid in terror praying that he'd miss them. Although the island was only a half mile mile from shore the water temps and current were also killing conditions. I'm surprised that the toll wasn't higher.

Like I said, you really have to see the documentary on this.
 
I would like to see that documentary. It is my understanding (perhaps incorrectly), that most of the victims were not Norwegians, but immigrants.
 
Our kids died like dogs at Virginia Tech with a person dressed in civies so please give the Norwegians their due, their kids were taught the behavior just as ours. In one incident at VT a student was shot hiding under a desk only to have the shooter return later and be shot again while still playing dead; people do what they are taught to do. These killers have access to weapons that truely should be banned but the line is drawn and reason has been thrown out the window.
 
These killers have access to weapons that truely should be banned but the line is drawn and reason has been thrown out the window.

Hmmmm, maybe we should make killing innocent people with guns illegal? Not the guns fault it was used in a crime.
 
These killers have access to weapons that truely should be banned but the line is drawn and reason has been thrown out the window.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what our member meant by this?

Does he mean the future killers should be banned from owning weapons?
Or does he mean that a Ruger Mini 30 (used in the Norway massacre) or a Glock 19 (used at Virginia Tech) should be banned?

Still trying to figure out what he meant...
 
These killers have access to weapons that truely should be banned but the line is drawn and reason has been thrown out the window.
I'm probably wrong but I'm thinking that from your screen name you are a Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 aficionado, a high powered scoped "sniper rifle" which in the wrong hands is capable of killing lots of people from a distance. Better ban those too.
And we should ban the websites and literature that created the hate in the Oslo killer's mind. And so on.
 
These killers have access to weapons that truely should be banned but the line is drawn and reason has been thrown out the window.

I have a solution...

Our federal governments should tie our hands behind our backs and only loose us to eat and pee. They should also gag us so we can't speak unless asked a specific question. This way we'll have no use for the RKBA nor for FoS.;)
 
I have a solution...

Our federal governments should tie our hands behind our backs and only loose us to eat and pee. They should also gag us so we can't speak unless asked a specific question. This way we'll have no use for the RKBA nor for FoS.;)
Wait, this isn't the case already?
 
I agree that killers should not have access to weapons, not even Pre-64 Winchesters.
But how do you keep guns out of the "wrong hands" without keeping them out of all hands? When you make blanket statements like the one above you are
GROUP STERIOTYPING
millions of peaceful people who own modern firearms as potential murderers before the fact based on the actions of a couple of deranged psychopaths. The problem with making criminals out of people who own certain types of guns is the same as making criminals out of people for being in the wrong place while being Black, having a Muslim sounding last name or “looking” like a member of an undesirable group.

Crime is an action not a tool.
 
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The kids at VT didn't do any better in terms of mobbing the shooter, so I wouldn't say the lack of doing so was somehow uniquely Norwegian. Mobbing the shooter sounds like something that would only work if you can actually organize a mob, and that sounds like it would be pretty difficult to do right in the face of an active shooter like VT or Norway.
 
Again, it is my understanding that most of these kids were not Norwegians. They were immigrants from Muslim nations, which is why this guy targeted them.

When you start shooting 12 to 16 year old kids, there is no nationality that is going to stand up and make a fight of it.
 
Ft. Hood. anyone????

3 attempted to do something and were shot, 4th succeeded after 13 dead and 30 wounded
 
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