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"Other than gas operation"

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Trent, Nov 24, 2011.

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  1. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Was cleaning the gun room this week and found my old paintball gear from eras gone by. Gave it to my oldest son.

    But it triggered an old thought I had awhile back with a method about (possibly) how to make semi-auto firearms more accurate.

    My idea was to eliminate the barrel port on an AR-15, rework the gas "plumbing" on the gas operation system to accept a feed from a high pressure N2 paintball tank (with appropriate valving), then wire an electronic microswitch to be activated on the RETURN of the trigger.

    So you pull the trigger, the gun goes boom, no gas is bled off to cycle the weapon which can make your shot placement inconsistent. You release the trigger and during the release process the N2 valve fires, cycling the weapon.

    No grit in the gun (it won't crap where it eats, anymore), no accuracy degradation, and you could even gain the ability to add a push button "cycle my weapon" feature (since you could cycle on demand instead of only when fired).

    Is this idea too far out there? Or does it sound like something that may work, and have some benefits?

    Might help our British brethren who can't own gas-operated semi-automatic firearms - it would give them the ability to actually cycle their weapons (via N2) without having to yank the charging handle each shot.

    Essentially it (should) have the accuracy of a bolt gun with the features of a semi-auto.
     
  2. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    that sounds overly complicated and prone to failure.

    it adds in unnecessary electrical and pneumatic components....

    then theres also the issue of having to change the air tanks....or else the gun wont cycle.....not something ide want to happen in the field....or possibly in a situation where my life depended on it.



    kudos to thinking outside the box.......but sometimes things arent invented for a reason.
     
  3. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    It would probably work perfectly fine. The Autococker (so called because they started as pump-actions, and had pneumatics rigged up to recock themselves semi-automatically) work on the same principle, and they're perfectly reliable as long as you set them up right and don't fiddle with it. In fact, you could literally just make an adapter to a gas-piston bolt and screw the pieces right to the gun. You might just need to switch out the piston, which has a 1"-stroke, to a longer one.

    Not something I would use as a service or self-defense weapon, but would be fine for the range.

    Two things, though. IIRC, the ATF has something against electronic controls, or at least ones separated from the mechanical trigger mechanism itself.

    Two, the actual motion of an AR recocking doesn't really do much until the bullet has actually left the barrel. The gas system pressurizes shortly before the bullet is gone, then has to wait until the pressure in the barrel and casing has dropped enough to let the bolt turn and extract the brass. So it's mostly a fix for a nonexistent problem, even if it might make things more consistent in the same manner changing to a bolt-action would.
     
  4. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    FYI, relevant to your remark, my Yugo SKS with the grenade-launcher gas cutoff valve seems to shoot slightly more accurately with the gas valve shut than when the gas blows all those parts around. Can't prove it, since I haven't really shot it that much, but it seems that way.

    I don't know how general that might be with respect to other gas-operated semiautos, but that's the way it looks so far.

    As far as having a separate pressure system for cycling is concerned, besides adding unnecessary complexity (in terms of battlefield conditions), the reduced pressure with each shot may add another unintended variable that would reduce accuracy in terms of inconsistent feeding.

    I don't believe modern combat requires superior accuracy as much as volume of fire, so it strikes me if your goal is accuracy for the sake of accuracy (as opposed to combat efficiency), go to a hand-operated bolt gun tuned for that goal. Like snipers use.

    Just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  5. gennro

    gennro Member

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    It would still be a gas operated semi-automatic weapon though. Sounds like a fix for a non-exsistant problem.
     
  6. Rangersnipersf

    Rangersnipersf Member

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    heres the best response i think ull get, i am a ranger so im very stright forward

    deus, I like the idea, As an army ranger sniper And in SF for the last 11 years, not to insult your intelligence because your idea is unique. but first understand how a gas operated assault weapon works. there is no gas feed, it works off of a roller rocker purge system. ("Special forces snipers, and rangers know what im talking about") I carry an m-4 which it has a gas operation reload system the features on this weapon are 3 round burst, and semi auto, any expert marksman will tell you that semi is all that's needed, unless you are doing what us rangers like to call 60 into 500, which makes the enemy think that there is a company of soldiers, not a platoon. u use the burst in this situation, other than that, the 3 round burst feature, reduces accuracy, by 88% due to rise and re-adjustment of your cheek to stock weld. Now back to the topic. the reason a weapon with this feature is mainly based upon the excess gas that is created by the powder in the shell. so when you shoot semi (best way) what takes place is you shoot, then as the round just passes the gas feed some of the force which is powering the projectile flows into the gas tub sending the force back to re-chamber another round. your weapon gets dirty cause of the UN-used powder. which leaves the residue on your weapon, from my professional opinion in using these weapons in combat for the last 10 years, hooking up an alternate feed to reload is setting yourself up for failure. alternating these weapons action mechanisms will essentially cause harm to the weapon, because they are designed that way by experts, not just one guy, if they thought an o2 tank would be more proficient instead of the weapons design, they would have done it. What i started doing during my 1st combat tour was instead of using gun oil, use A.t.F....lol Yes automatic transmission fluid. it cleans all of the internal actions while keeping you weapon cool. trust a combat condition sf soldier, i spent years over there. instead of cleaning and oiling your weapon after every use, with ATF youll clean it after every 1,000 rounds, just try it, you will love it, but in reference to your idea, i think its cool, but altering a weapons stock firing and reloading mechanisms, you seting yourself up for a whole bunch of trouble. try my way. also i believe i read that you are using an AR-15. That's a .223 which is the same round as a 5.56. all they are is a .22 on steroids, but they are dirty guns, try getting into reloading, or spending more money on cleaner ammo, when it comes to recoil u shouldnt be having in issue with that, those weapons are made to be used in combat, the recoil spring is abot 17" long, and are designed to be used alot, shot placement it the key, if your getting too much rise, you might want to participate in my tactical and precision firearms training. it is ran by all special opps soldiers and infantry men with years of combat experience. if you interested its in Pa. for rates and more information contact me @ 412-616-3160. rise issues are most of the time corrected by using a lighter grain, but a ,223 you should have no issues, u could also send you weapon to me, ill test and tune it. then return it to u.
     
  7. Rangersnipersf

    Rangersnipersf Member

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    to correct a persons post on yours, RE: ATF LAW. he was not talking a mechanically operated trigger, to totally bust u on this, a everything on a semi or automatic weapon is mechanical. the ATF has laws against remote or electronically opperated firing mechanisms. and on another topic, a gas opperated weapon does not have a gas chamber or reservoir. thats y u have to rack the initial round,unless you are doing a combat reload! a gas operated roller rocker assault weapons chamber is filled just before the projectile passes the intake end of the line, therefor it sends the gas back to the bolt and the bolt actually rolls completely into the the butt stock and the recoil spring sends the bolt forward acquiring another round, it doesn't roll back just an inch, a 223 (ar-15) round is bigger than an inch. the bolt precisely goes into the bolt and recoil spring chsmber 5.91 inches from the firing position, trust me im a master gun smith and i build custom ar's and m-4 for swat teams, police depts and civilians, I've built over 12,000 weapons in my life. but like i said to alter the weapons firing/reloading features is not something you should do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! period ur asking for a massive weapon failure, obstructions, the gun could even blow up in you face, but what the ATF does have serious laws against alterations to firing and reloading mech alterations
     
  8. TenMillimaster

    TenMillimaster Member

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    There is an entire class of firearms operation that eliminates that gas port and make true free floating possible. Blowback! Can it handle rifle pressures? Sure, with some figuring. the G3 is roller delayed blowback and it does just fine, I hear. Even is the basis for one of the worlds best(and expensive) autoloading sniper rifles.

    Much, much simpler than what you're suggesting.
     
  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I have a rebarrelled and otherwise massaged AR15 that is somewhat more accurate than my best bolt action. You may NOT install an external actuator on it or otherwise mess with success. Its only flaw is throwing my prepped target brass in the weeds. I should have had it converted to manual operation while I was setting it up. But I don't think that would have helped its accuracy, it is running way sub MOA, probably at my holding limit.

    I don't think such gimmickry would let a Brit assemble a rifle that would function just like an automatic. Their bureaucrats have even more power than ours, and they would not allow that.

    Sure, you can build an autoloading action that does not use separate gas handling, of which the H&K/Vorgrimmer action is the leading deployed example. But they don't seem particularly accurate until you get up to the 18 lb PSG-1.

    I wonder how accurate Mr Garand's primer setback action would have been if given equal development.

    I do wish the Special Forces would explain what a roller rocker gas purge system is, the term is not in my ordinary manuals.
     
  10. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    I own a G3 and a CETME, I'm familiar with the action. Believe me I've scrubbed out my share of crap out of chamber flutes. Once used engine oil to lube the dang thing when I forgot my toolkit at home with the oil in it. Works in a pinch. :)

    The issue is that ANY gas-reaction system (gas operated or blowback) allows SOME gas to operate your weapon. SOME gas, but not ever always the SAME amount. It's easy to prove this - if it somehow magically DID use the exact same force diversion off of each shot, your shell casings would all travel the exact same distance and land in a nice, neat pile on top of one another! (or, less subjectively, I'd be able to get as consistent velocity readings out of it as I do my bolt guns)

    The gas diverted happens PRIOR to the bullet leaving the muzzle. Sure, the action shouldn't move until pressures drop and the bullet is out of the muzzle. That shouldn't affect your shot any more than the initial recoil impulse already does. But the amount (volume) of gas varies, as does the pressure, leading to a higher standard deviation of velocity when compared to a bolt action rifle, which divides no amount of gas.

    By triggering the cycling from a secondary source after the bullet is out, you retain fast loading but take out ALL sources which could be detrimental to the shot's accuracy - except the barrel quality, the ammo quality, and the shooter quality.

    Jim, I know you have been around a long time, and you have my respect - very few people could put together an AR rifle that accurate. My best effort fell far short of my expectations; was an expensive experiment with an air gauged custom reamed 223 Wylde chamber and 80 grain bullets that didn't pan out so well. May have just go a lemon of a barrel, but I couldn't get highly consistent velocities out of it. Groups at 100 yards are respectable, but the further out it goes, the thing strings out. Never got my velocity problem pinned down - which is why I started thinking about alternative ways to cycle the action which weren't so dirty, or so inconsistent.

    My question to you would be, on AR-15's with manual actions (like the afforementioned Brits use in competitions), are they "as accurate", or "more accurate" than gas cycled actions?

    Doing a retrofit of an action to cycle outside of the firing process would be (yet another) expensive experiment, but recently I read that the brits use manually operated AR15's. It would seem the answer would be right there, but I can't find any conclusive information one way or the other.

    (I remember reading long ago about your house fire, by the way, glad you got out of that in one piece!)
     
  11. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Roller rockers????
     
  12. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Yeah... I couldn't think of a polite way to respond to that either, jerkface11, so I opted to just skip it.
     
  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Given the accuracy achievable with tuned gas-operated rifles (for example M15-style varmit rifles), what is the basis for this claim?
     
  14. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Sean, I mean, er, Rangersnipersf, it sure sounds like you've got a lot of real-world experience! Would you mind posting some of the photos from your classes?

    Also, since you're a full-time Special Forces warrior, would you mind telling us how you're able to find the time to a work as a roofer, bike ride organizer, build 15 custom Mustangs, and find the time to work as a ghost hunter, too?

    I mean, that's pretty hardcore. I barely have the time to do even 1/10 of that stuff, and I don't have to deal with the rigors of a demanding schedule of clandestine military deployments.
     
  15. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Now, thats funny right there!

    That's even funnier!!!!
    I don't care who ya are!!

    rc
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  16. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Since the timing of the AR action is such that the bolt is not unlocked until after the bullet has left the barrel, I don't see movement of the bolt carrier and bolt as affecting accuracy that much.

    However, proper gas operation is dependent on a specific level of gas pressure. This usually limits you to a specific range of power in the cartridge. An extrenal source of gas pressure would give you the same operating pressure regardless of whether the cartridges were loaded for subsonic, or small game foraging, or full tilt boogie power levels.
     
  17. Tim the student

    Tim the student Member

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    Trent, I don't see what the real benefit is I guess, given that my AR shoots as well or better than all my bolt guns. Even if it could work flawlessly, I just don't see what the real benefit is.

    Thank god I wasn't the only one that found that stuff and wanted to call him out on it. Don't forget that he also built over 12,000 weapons in his life. Busy indeed.

    Pretty interesting that there is a post here from "Sean Hein" in which the poster refers to himself as a ranger and a "spec opps" soldier. Strange, huh?

    But hey, I'm sure I could get excellent training from this Craigslist ad.
     
  18. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Really? Do you work for Colt or Bushmaster? That's pretty high volume. If you're building these on your own then we need to see your Manufacturer's FFL license if you want to market those services here.
     
  19. redneckdan

    redneckdan Member

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    You are joking right? It is easier to get an AR to shoot than it is a bolt gun. Float a good barrel....that is it. No action truing, no bedding receivers, no nothing. Install a quality barrel with a cheap DPMS aluminum forend, check the receiver fit and bolt/carrier travel to ensure nothing binds and you are done. If your boom stick won't shoot a 69gr SMK over 25.0gr of 748 into itty bitty groups on the short course then you have a gun problem.
     
  20. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Rangers are well educated, and can all write well above a 4th grade level. It is very hard to take you seriously when you write at a 3rd or 4th grade level. Just sayin'.
     
  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm confused, not uncommon, but I thought Ft. Benning was near Columbus GA and not in PA. I also don't understand how you could build 12,000 weapons with a 12 year career in the military as a Ranger/Sniper/SF. What further confuses me is how you would use the term "roller rocker purge system" for the operating system for an AR when the schematic for the AR's mechanism shows nothing that could be called that and no components rocking or rolling. There are even some good animated video showing the rotating bolt operation of the AR with the direct impingement system driving the bolt carrier that further denies the use of anything like the term you've made up, amongst other things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGlthExwRQ&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  22. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    I stopped reading right there... well not really but I wished I had.

    As others have said, if you are going to make the claims you are making please provide certs or documentation that will backup your claim. It is nothing personal but anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. I am the King of Prussia by the way.
     
  23. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Seems legit.......other than the fact that I'M the King of Prussia!:mad:
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  24. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I've shopped at the King of Prussia mall, and I didn't see either of you there.
     
  25. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Ken,

    Why don't you invite Rangersnipersf to your club so he can show is training techniques to the other pros there?
     
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