Owning foreign war guns...

Status
Not open for further replies.
The range I shoot at does not allow SKS or AK's for that very reason. At least, that's their "official" story. The story I got from an employee was that some yahoo shot a power line with his AK and the electric company would only fix it if the range banned AK's.
Click to expand...

And that would then be MY "official" reason for refusing to use their facilities. A monumentally ignorant set of choices from all angles.

But I must say, WOW, what an awesome job of forensic detective work that power company must have done to determine even what CALIBER of bullet damaged their lines, let alone what CARTRIDGE fired that bullet, and HOLY COW, they even managed to extrapolate what KIND OF GUN was used fire the cartridge! They must be very, VERY smart people over there at the power company. Yup. Sure are! Right GENIUSES, all of them! And then they used their legal might to pressure a shooting range to ban THAT SPECIFIC MODEL (ok, so two models) of rifle? Because no other kind would be capable of doing the same... :fire: :rolleyes: :p Don't believe all the [poop] you're told. You just stumbled into a bunch of (I believe the slang term is "Fudds") who don't like "'dem high-cap-a-sit-eee auto-matical killin' machines," so they won't let you shoot one at their range.

Back to the question at hand:

A rifle or gun is more than a tool. It is a solution to a problem. The problem is common to all folks wishing to arm themselves (how to deliver a bullet with a certain amount of energy and with an acceptable degree of accuracy) but how each group managed to solve that problem -- and update and refine and develop new solutions as time passed -- has produced a wide variety of wonderful mechanical systems which combine function and art. The weapons of our allies and our (once and someday perhaps, future) enemies are interesting and valuable INHERENTLY because of the imagination, ingenuity, and elegance with which their inventors managed to solve the problem at hand. The quality and capabilities of one gun might make it more interesting than another (e.g.: Springfield > Mosin-Nagant) but they are all worthy.

To a greatly reduced degree, the historical connections that a weapon might make it MORE interesting and worthy of attention, but NEVER less so.

Someone used this gun to kill someone else? Is it still bloody? Did it rust up? Is it damaged? If not, then the old use is completely irrelevant.

Emotional quibbles about "this gun was used to kill Americans, Canadians, Aborigines, aliens, or the Easter Bunny" are just a half-a$$ed kind of superstition.

IMNSHO.

-Sam
 
There are good men of all races, nationalities and creeds, and bad men just the same...and what is good for some may not be so for others.

Frankly, nationalistic tribalism has led humanity down the path of war far more often than it would be appropriate to recount. I, for one, won't partake. Do I have any reservations about owning or shooting the weapons employed by foreign armies, potentially against my own countrymen? No. "American" is merely an identity, not an assumption of value.
 
I have this friend.
Once he got SO drunk (and went for a run) that he fell down, got sick, ended up with his head stuck between my toilet bowl and the wall, and crapped himself.

We cleaned him up, put him to bed, and gave him a shirt of mine to wear. I still have that shirt. It's clean now, and this was years ago.
When I put it on, is it wrong of me to experience this moment of pause when I remember the shirt's history? I wear it anyway. But I remember.

Of COURSE it's just a shirt.
Some people are more sentimental than others. It's certainly an error to confuse sentiment with objectivity - THAT's the key to the 2A fight, but humans are a combination of both. Both aspects inform decisions and personal optima. Sentiment in large quantity often determines policy, hence our form of US gov't that's supposed to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

Would you scrap your grandfather's rifle because it's "just steel and wood" and you don't shoot it anyway? I doubt it. If you would, you're probably in the minority.

If it's just wood and lawn and bones, why is Arlington National Cemetery meaningful? How about the beaches of Omaha? They're just plots of land.... It's just a rifle...

The point I'm trying to make by example is that people experience the effect of history, which is triggered by physical objects, sights, smells, etc. We're pretty much wired up that way for recall. You can't separate the object that triggers recall and the memory or ideas that come with it WHEN in the context of other people. Not permanently. You might be able to say to a group: "Now set aside, for the moment, your feelings about this old rifle. Let's examine it on it's mechanical merits." Ok, fine. But ignoring the fact that there is history coloring the experience of that rifle in people's minds is just counter-productive.

If the rifle means nothing to you, I've got no problem with that. But don't be surprised when someone else feels differently. Telling them "your feelings are wrong" isn't gonna change their mind. Your goal might be better served by "ooh, then you'll really like THIS rifle," and put something more appropriate *to them* in *their* hands.


-Daizee
 
No. "American" is merely an identity, not an assumption of value.
Click to expand...

And this is exactly why this country is in the shape it is in now.
 
The tools of war and even the opposing soldiers are not to blame for wars. Its the countries political leadership that is to blame. Hate them for what they do, not the soldier or gun he is using to fight for his country.

The Mauswer 98 was copied and became the U.S. Springfield 1903 rifle. Should we not own those either due to their Mauser design?
 
Would you scrap your grandfather's rifle because it's "just steel and wood" and you don't shoot it anyway? I doubt it. If you would, you're probably in the minority.
Click to expand...

Would you scrap it because he, or someone else, shot someone with it? OF COURSE NOT!

-Sam
 
You are being too emotional in regards to a weapon that was possibly used against a American,or Brit or Canadian or Aussie for that matter.But if you feel so compelled to blame the gun (don't anti's do that?) get yourself a Russian capture K98,if the fact that it was used against communists doesn't bother you as much.

I dunno,I'm not trying to harp on you,I can understand your patriotism,and maybe I can understand someone not wanting a gun that actually killed their child or family member by accident for a example,but the Allies fought against idealism and tyranny in WW2 not against Walther or Mauser.
 
Years ago, I had a chance to get K98,with both the Deutch Waffenamt and the Israeli inspection stamps on it....it had been arsenal conerted to .308/7.62NATO ( probably concurrent with the IDF adotpion of an FAL variant)...great condition,nice bore and $125OTD...kicj myself in the @ss on a dialy basis for not being able to get THAT one;believe me.
 
You are being too emotional in regards to a weapon that was possibly used against a American,or Brit or Canadian or Aussie for that matter.But if you feel so compelled to blame the gun (don't anti's do that?) get yourself a Russian capture K98,if the fact that it was used against communists doesn't bother you as much.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is directed towards my posts or not, but I'll take it. ;-)

I don't "blame the gun". I recognize that the gun has symbolic value. If that symbolic value bothers me, I'll get a different gun, since I have the choice. I don't HAVE to have a Mauser (though I almost bought a fixer-upper once), and neither do you HAVE to have an AR or Garand instead. Believe you me, if I did not have the luxury of choice I wouldn't be nearly so picky. But this entire thread is predicated on the fact that we DO have the luxury of being picky. Since owning a German war rifle does not carry useful symbology for me, no thanks. And my reasons are fairly clear.

But... I don't want a Russian Capture K98.
I don't feel the need to find an excuse to own a German war rifle. That was kind of my point from my first post.

If the choice were between one that shot at Soviets and one that shot at Americans, maybe I'd pick one over the other for that reason. As long as I'm not doing something boneheaded like picking the one that doesn't work merely because it was pointed in one direction vs. the other, I'm entirely entitled (not to be called an dope). Function and utility overrides emotional content. But since all of that function and utility, for me, can be found in rifles without all that baggage (or with more stylish bags - remember the baggage is actually mine/yours, handed down from family and society at large), I'll choose them instead. It might be because when shooting such a gun I can envision myself shooting against a historical enemy with more comfort than when shooting a rifle from the opposing side. *shrug*

Saying "It's just metal and wood" reduces "it" to merely the physical thing. In fact "it" is a "foreign war gun". That's the context and the baggage. That's the "it", not just "this rifle here in front of me".

Cheers,

-Daizee
 
THE CALL
(France, August first,1914)
Far and near, high and clear,
Hark to the call of War!
Over the gorse and the golden dells
Ringing and swinging of clamorous bell
Praying and saying of wild Farewells:
War! War! War!
...
High and low, all must go:
Hark to the shout of War!
Leave to the women the harvest yield;
Gird ye, men, for the sinister field;
A saber instead of a scythe to wield:
War! Red War!
...
Rich and poor, lord and boor,
Hark to the blast of War!
Tinker and tailor and millionaire,
Actor in triumph and priest in prayer,
Comrades now in the hell out there,
Sweep to the fire of War!
...
Prince and page, sot and sage,
Hark to the roar of war!
Poet, professor and circus clown,
Chimney-sweeper and fop o' the town,
Into the pot and be melted down:
Into the pot of War!
...
Women all, hear call,
The pitiless call of War!
Look your last on your dearest ones,
Brothers and husbands, fathers, sons:
Swift they go to the ravenous guns,
The gluttonous guns of War.
...

Everywhere thrill the air
The maniac bells of War.
There will be little of sleeping to-night;
There will be wailing and weeping tonight:
Death's red sickle is reaping to-night:
WAR! WAR! WAR!

Robert Service
 
was replying to the OP Daize,not you.

England has been at war with American's,is Enfield a dirty name?Today's enemy could be tommorrow's friend and visa versa.The very symbolic rifle of the red's during the cold war is now very common in the the hands of American's and is now as much as a American militia rifle as the AR15 is.

Israeli's who have one of the worst memories of WW2 Germany used captured German weapon's as the arms to defend their new nation.They may hate the Nazi symbol but they used German weapons none the less.

If anything instead of viewing a weapon as a symbol of what killed your countryman the fact that you can buy and own captured Mauser's and Arisaka's not to mention Commy weapon's now should be seen as a spoil of war and that we won so rejoice in that.
 
The Enfield wasn't in use during wars between England and the US.

I can also view anything I want however I want. Some posters on here get it. It isn't the gun per say. It is the symbolism and history that comes with the gun.

You guys can do what you want. I just said it wasn't for me, and you are not going to convince me by making thin comments like "guns don't kill people", "do you have a car?", "it's a tool".

The rifle was created by Nazi's to shoot at Americans and its Allies. It doesn't represent anything to me other than the enemy of freedom.
 
Yes you are free to own or view them as you see fit.Garands were used to shoot down unarmed American protesters in the 60's,I blame the politicians and military commanders for that not the Garand.Then again the Garand help defeat the Axis......
 
Unarmed protesters causing ill will to society and looting should be dealt with accordingly. So you could say the Garands were actually protecting American Citizens as well. To each their own.
 
You know, I started to read these posts earlier today and decided not to post, but as the day went on, I felt the need to post something here, as what I have to say may be, or may not be relevant, but I have the right as an American, to post here, since men like my father, fought to free this land from those who have stifled this type of speech.

My father brought back a German dagger which he killed a German officer with. He never came out and said so in a point blank fashion, but he eluded to it and then rapidly changed the subject. This was not a highly treasured memento, it was something in which he would barely speak about. He never displayed the dagger in a shiny box with velvet lining or hung on his wall in his office. He kept it in his sock drawer, along with his ribbons and a few other mementos.

When he spoke of the war it was not stories of killing many countless men, to the contrary, it was stories of him and his crew stealing food from the poor old German ladies, because he and his crew were tired of K rations. You see my dad was a tank commander and he never had to harm any of these people and never took more than a meals worth of food from any single farm, but when he was caught by his CO and had to empty the tank of all of its bounty, even he and his crew were hard pressed to figure out how they got all of that food in there and still managed to fit four men inside to boot.

These stories, the funny stories, were what he chose to share. He was never proud that he had to kill man to man at least on one occasion. He was happy to have made it home alive. So I asked myself this question today... Would I ever want to own a firearm that was at some point, aimed at my father? Never in a million years! And that is my final answer.

When a close friend told me to look for a mauser 98 action for cheap and he would make me a custom gun, I never really looked for one. I have seen some of my friends handy work and he is world renowned in the building of custom guns, yet I decided to just get what I could afford and do my best to make a good gun. I chose an Enfield and a M1917.

I wondered why I had been steering away from the mouser's and others that were German and Japanese weapons, and today I found my answer.

Now, I ask you... If there was a possibility that your father had one of these pointed at him, would you still want it? I am only 41 years old. So age is of no matter. My daughter is 6. Would she want a gun that could have killed her grandpa? I am sure her answer would be NO WAY!

Are guns tools? Yes! Are all tools created equally? I think not! The German war machine was created out of evil, and all of its parts were evil, including the rifles they wielded.

There is something about a weapon, that was used to kill so many people so senselessly, that I can have no part of it. I have no desire to ever own one, and I never will! The thought of owning one makes me sick to my stomach even pondering it. May all Nazi Germans rot in hell for their atrocities against humanity!

That is what my dad was fighting to stop, and that makes me proud to be an American, and my father's son!

Mikey!
 
Some people consider a Mauser K98 as a symbol of the evil done by Nazis.
Some people consider all firearms as a symbol of evil.

I disagree with both. Their perception of a symbol ain't mine, and they shouldn't try to convince me to 'see' a symbol their way.
 
I have a couple of Chinese made T-53's (a Chinese version of the Mosin Nagant 44). They were made in 1956 according to the stamp on the receiver. I have often wondered if they made the trip down the Ho Chi Minh Trail at some point, and were used to fight and probably kill, "yankee dogs."

Maybe they were. If they could talk, I'd like to hear the stories they could tell. They'd probably tell how the man or woman who carried them into battle was either a dedicated communist, a partiot who simply considered himself to be defending his home from a foreign invader, or perhaps just a kid from some village who got grabbed and told "go fight." They'd probably tell of being tired, hungry and scared half to death.

Not much different really than soldiers from anywhere, any war, any time.

Right now, those rifles are leaning in a corner gathering dust. If there are any ghosts attached to them, they're quiet ones. They don't cause any problems for me or my wife. They might as well be fence posts. (Which is what they looked like they'd been used for when I got them.) They're just a couple of old rifles.
 
Lionking,

Israeli's who have one of the worst memories of WW2 Germany used captured German weapon's as the arms to defend their new nation.They may hate the Nazi symbol but they used German weapons none the less.
Click to expand...

*Preceisely* what I meant what I said we had the luxury of choice.
They didn't. Speculating about what they might have armed themselves with instead is pointless navel-gazing.

And of course I'm happy we won WW-II. I'm just not much into trophies for the reasons stated. That leaves more for you, and keeps the prices down. More power to ya. I'd never suggest that such items should be prohibited by law. I may "prefer" if they are held in less regard, but I'll defend your right to buy them regardless.


-Daizee
 
mw_guns.gif
 
Now, I ask you... If there was a possibility that your father had one of these pointed at him, would you still want it?
Click to expand...
Without question I would! I had mentioned that there was the possibility of a particular gun having a history that would make it more interesting and this would just about top that list! Not that the gun itself killed grandpa, but that it was used (by someone) to do so. Who would turn down the chance to own such a thing? Now you've got a quality piece of artistry/machinery that ALSO has incredibly significant family history! Wow!

Are guns tools? Yes! Are all tools created equally? I think not! The German war machine was created out of evil, and all of its parts were evil, including the rifles they wielded.
Click to expand...

And the tanks, planes, ships, and cars they drove. Evil! And the Nazi houses they lived in, and the Nazi food they ate! Evil, I tell you! Would you eat the same food as a German soldier might have eaten and then passed gas at your father?

Absolute hysterical superstition. And repeating/spreading such statements damages the very basis of our strongest arguments against gun control.

-Sam
 
I look them as a piece of history. :scrutiny:

However, if you could prove to me that on of my guns was a concentration camp gun or the like, I would probably donate it to a museum along with the documentation. That way it could do some good or be one more piece of evidence for the doubters.
 
I too think of them as a piece of history. I would especially love to own any WWII weapon with a known provenance, mainly because it was such a huge event in world history. It may not be as ancient to us as, say, the Trojan War, but in the big picture it is just as important. So to me owning something that could be traced directly to the Battle of the Bulge or Iwo Jima is fascinating to me. Owning the piece is not at all about endorsing the side that originally carried it. Having said that, I have even more pleasure in owning a WWII era M1 Garand than I could owning a WWII era Mauser. i.e. the Patriotic aspect is in addition to the historic aspect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

V
  • Locked
Milsup & foreign guns, date of immigration?
Replies
3
Views
309
HGM22
H
cluttonfred
  • Locked
Green Aussie guns?
Replies
8
Views
651
bannockburn
bannockburn
E
  • Locked
War of the Rats
Replies
24
Views
1K
dadman
D
M
  • Locked
Are there any gun commentators/historians you watch
Replies
2
Views
224
Carter
C
T
  • Locked
want short bbl .308 (jungle/truck) carbine
Replies
12
Views
1K
ball3006
B
Back
Top