P210

[bannockburn]

gopguy

Truly awesome collection of P210s! I have seen a number of P210s over the years, mainly at gun shows and while I would love to have one they were always outside of my comfort zone in terms of their price. Maybe if they make a slightly less expensive service model and maybe if i have enough money saved up... well maybe I just might get one.

 

[BSA1]

I was really excited until I got to Post #14.

For $1600.00 there are too many other guns I want.

Dang...I would really like to have a target grade 9mm.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Top quality guns are like top quality cars. Most of us would enjoy driving a Porsche 911, but aren't willing to pay the price...

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I'm looking forward to the release of the new P210. I'm hoping to get a Carry model and a Super Target model.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I'm hoping the will be as nice and accurate as my old one, if so I will be there standing in line!

 

[boatdoc173]

I'm not sure that a P-210 will be THAT much better than a P-226 X-Five (in 9mm).

Some years back I had an older (made in '76) P-210-6, and it was a sweet-shooting, very accurate gun. But that older style had some issues: single-stack 8-round mags, european type mag release (on the butt of the grip), sharp edges on the sights, EXPENSIVE magazines (roughly $100, then) and HARD to get and expensive parts if you ever ever need them or want spares. Mine came with a proof target showing a 1.75" five shot group at 50 meters (roughly 53 yards), and I've seen smaller groups from the proof targets of other P-210s.

If the new guns offer quality that is comparable to the old ones, and model changes address the short-comings (some of which WERE addressed with newer models), they could be a great buy, but I'm not sure they'll be that much better than an X-Five. I'll also be surprised if they sell for anywhere near the $1100 amount cited above.

it will not be an X5 or X6 it represents the base model that the X5 and X6 were made from in w est germany
now they claim they will make american x5 and x6 guns. so far though the NH made models are not up to the quality(IMHO) of those great west german made models of the past. too bad. I love Sigs but I am leery of buying more unless the quality improves. now that they have the army contract, I am waiting and holding my breathe that they quality will go up but I am doubtful. lots of new hires will have to be weeded out until the product quality is worht the $$ asked.
typical example--the legion series =overhyped ,over priced not a great level of improvement for that kind of bling(again MHO)

 

[Morgo]

Really just seems like Sig USA is cashing in on the famous Sig P210 name. The real P210 was a quality firearm what was partly discontinued due to the cost to produce.
These "new" P210s are just a copy and have had significant changes to them. Possibly they will still shoot ok but they are not a real P210.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

These "new" P210s are just a copy and have had significant changes to them. Possibly they will still shoot ok but they are not a real P210.

True... but Germany currently won't export more SIGs to the U.S; the only new guns available are guns made here in the SIG factory. (That restraint may eventually change.)

Keep in mind, however, that same argument was once used when comparing old Camaro and Mustang muscle cars to the new ones. The new ones are now faster, more roadworthy, and efficient than the old ones. Let's hope that SIG doesn't compromise too much when making the new P-210s.

I've had a couple of the older Sphinx 2000 pistols. Those pistols were in some ways imilar to the P210 SIGS. SphinxArms redesigned the Sphinx pistols to be more economically made and competitive in the marketplace, but using newer technology (CNC, lower labor costs.). While SphinxArms has failed has failed [bankruptcy, which seems to be a repeating part of the Sphinx history], the importer seems to have taken over production, so the Sphinx semi-autos will still be available. The guns may even be made here in the U.S. My newer Sphinx SDP, which was built using the new design and technology, seems every bit as good as the 2000 Series Sphinx guns I once had --but just not quite as pretty. (The old ones were almost too pretty, with high-gloss stainless frames, which showed minor scratches, etc). Sometimes newer isn't necessarily worse.

 

[Rock185]

Plastik, I somehow doubt, to say the least, the American P210s are going to be as nice as yours. If so, I would be in line too. Ain't Gonna Happen.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I can hope!
I do enjoy my 226 x5, 220 x6-L1 and my 553p (yes I know, all German guns) Maybe SIG US will apply some good manufacturing techniques and make something worth owning

 

[bannockburn]

Plastikosmd

That's one sweet looking P210 you've got there; especially with all of the "goodies" to go along with it! Love the grips too!

 

[Plastikosmd]

Thank u, 22 conversion is fun

 

[bannockburn]

Plastikosmd

[Thank u, 22 conversion is fun/QUOTE]

Yeah I figured as much. That's why I picked a Kadet .22 conversion assembly for my CZ P01. That and the fact that they offered it to me at an incredibly low price when I bought my P01 clinched the deal.

 

[tark]

OK. I have my shield ready, to protect me from all the stones that will be cast in my direction, for what I am about to say.

I remember the first time I examined a 210....and how underwhelmed I was. For quality of exterior finish it was well above average....but no better than my Star Super A or my C-96 or any number of other quality pistols of that era. The frame to slide fit was very good, but again, I have seen any number of pre-WWII Colts that were better. (The commercial models.) Long story short, the gun was very nice, well fitted and well finished, but really no better than many other pistols of the same era.

And THIS is what really turned me off; The magazine catch. A cheap looking piece of stamped and bent steel. Oh....I'm sure it is a very high quality piece of cheap looking steel, very expertly bent by magic trolls deep in the pine forests of the Swiss Alps....but it still looked totally out of place on a pistol of that quality.

I did not and have not ever fired one, but I have talked to people that have and they are universal in their high praise, so I will admit the gun shoots like a dream.

But I just can't get past that cheap looking mag catch. It just looks like a giant pimple on a supermodel's face....something that shouldn't be there. Give me a few seconds, please, that I may crawl into my bunker and hunker down, against the firestorm coming in my direction, because of my heresy

 

[John G C 1]

I am sure it will not be cheap, but clearly Sig knows how to make good guns. I hope they come through. If not, then not. Until then, all the discussion is fun but worthless in the end. I guess we will have to wait. At the rate they promote this gun but fail to bring it to the market, I am just hoping I live to see its release.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

But I just can't get past that cheap looking mag catch. It just looks like a giant pimple on a supermodel's face....something that shouldn't be there. Give me a few seconds, please, that I may crawl into my bunker and hunker down, against the firestorm coming in my direction, because of my heresy

If the newest P210 are like the newer models introduced a few years back, they don't have that inelegant mag catch. They have a push button on the grip, just like other SIGs.

There are things about the P210 that I didn't like -- I mentioned them in my earlier response. But, the WAY the mag release worked (European style, on the butt of the grip), not how it's made or what it's made of, was my concern. That mag release was a great pimple on a supermodel's face, because you had to greatly reposition the gun to release the mag -- there was no way to do it single-handedly. While it was a pimple on a supermodel's face, you can't ignore the fact that it was on a supermodel's face! I would note, too, that it's kind of hard to SWAP mags with the C-96.

That said, I'd bet money that the FIT of the P210 was a significantly BETTER than the Star Super A or C-96 you mentioned, as those two guns are just not the same class of weapon, And, of course, almost any gun can be made to look great, but doing so could be a bit like putting lipstick on a pig if you start with the wrong gun.

The newer P-210 models, starting about 8-9 years ago, addressed a number of these more-obvious short-comings with upgrades and modifications.

An analogy: if an individual is very focused on looks and less concerned about performance, a Porsche 914 (also called the VW-Porsche 914) with a custom paint job and fancy wheels, might be as satisfying as the much more refined and much more expensive Porsche 911. (Sadly, I'll probably never get a 914, either, because they've become pretty pricey, too.)

 

[Rock185]

Tark, I can relate. I'd been aware of the FN/Browning GP pistols for years before ever buying one. My reluctance was to buy a GP was solely because I couldn't get past the cheap looking bent metal adjustable rear sight. Well, I took a chance, and have now owned 3 GPs. The rear sight does it's job without issue, just as that mag catch does on the Swiss P210s. It just may be though that those same magic trolls were somehow involved in manufacture of the GP sights too

 

[tark]

That said, I'd bet money that the FIT of the P210 was a significantly BETTER than the Star Super A or C-96 you mentioned, as those two guns are just not the same class of weapon,

And you would lose your money. And the C-96 is a number of classes ABOVE any Swiss copy of a French pistol called a P-210. I have an un-issued C-96 that is brand new, never fired after proof and still greased up with cosmoline on the inside. It makes a P-210 look crude and poorly finished by comparison. My Star Super A, side by side with a 210, holds its own quite nicely, thank you very much. Your average commercial Browning High Power is a better gun, if you ask me.

I know 210 owners are as passionate about their favorite as anybody, but that doesn't make the gun any better than it actually is; which is no better or worse than many other pistols, most of which cost less

Sorry, but I'm still underwhelmed by the breed.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

tark:

We seem to be using different definitions of FIT. (I didn't mention finish.) Side by side comparisons are nice, but until you put the gun in a Ransom Rest and fire it, you can't really tell whether a gun is well fit or not.

Your definition of FIT seems to be focused on how it looks (surfaces polisthed, etc.), not how it works. FIT is NOT a well-polished surface or a lack of tooling marks. It's how well the parts work when the gun is fired, and how consistently the gun's barrel, slide, and sights return to the same position after each shot. If your only experience with a P210 is limited to the time you examined one and found the mag release to be wanting, you've not really assessed a P-210's FIT or the gun's potential for accuracy.

As I noted previously, my P-210-6 came with a proof target [which was done using a Ransom Rest at the SIG factory] that showed a 1.75" five-shot group at 50 meters (roughly 55 yards). I've seen other P-210 proof targets with even smaller groups. You don't get groups that small unless the gun is extremely well fit. I'd be willing to bet that neither your Star Super A nor your best C-96 can come anywhere close to that level of precision.

While I am a fan of P-210s, I don't consider them a firearms Holy Grail. They are, however, fine weapons. If I ever get enough free money to buy another P-210 or comparable gun, I'll probably get a SIG P226 X-Five (SA) in 9mm, instead I'd do that for the number of things I don't like about the P-210, but not just because of an ugly mag release. And it would have nothing to do with poor fit. (Mine was nicely finished but not a high-gloss gun; it had an almost matte finish, straight out of the box. I bought it new in '96; it had been on a distributor's shelf since 1976...)

 

[tark]

Well, we both have good points, Walt. And don't get me wrong, I will have a P-210 someday. Just because it is an Iconic firearm, if for no other reason. I believe it is considered the most accurate service pistol anybodies army ever adopted. So.....

Your definition of FIT seems to be focused on how it looks (surfaces polisthed, etc.), not how it works.

Ahhhhh.....no. For 21 years I checkered 1911 frames for Les Baer, and for the last fifteen, I also fitted frames to slides. When I finished they had to have ZERO play. I know exactly what "fit" means. And a lot of our 1-1/2" @ 50 yards guaranteed guns put an entire magazine into one ragged hole from a Ransom. At fifty yards. The only thing that's going to top that comes from somebody's custom shop.

I'd be willing to bet that neither your Star Super A nor your best C-96 can come anywhere close to that level of precision.

Well, of course not, at least with the Star. But the fact that it comes close, while costing 1/3 as much, impresses me. Cosmetically, at least, it is every bit as good as the 210. We will never know with the C-96 because it will never be fired.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Well, of course not, at least with the Star. But the fact that it comes close, while costing 1/3 as much, impresses me. Cosmetically, at least, it is every bit as good as the 210. We will never know with the C-96 because it will never be fired.

I don't think anyone in this discussion made big claims about P-210 cosmetics. None of the SIG P-210s I've encountered were ever really dolled up, but a search on the 'net will show you some. Here's one of the NEWER P-210s from a few years back that really impressed me. Notice the mag release? Most, however, seem closer to working gun than show guns. If you want pretty, you can get pretty, but as with a Les Baer gun, you pay for it. . The Les Baer guns I've seen seem a cut above cosmetically, but I'm sure that accounts for some of their higher prices.

The LES BAER guns are comparable in price and fit to some of the P210 models, but either gun can also be more expensive depending on the whistles and bells selected. I don't have a clue about price of the one shown below, but suspect it's on up there.

On the other hand, you can install one of the pricier Marvel .22 kits on a 1911 frame and get similar accuracy to the Les Baer and SIG P210, and the slide may not even have to be surgically fitted tightly to the frame -- as long as you use the sights!

Mentioning the Star Super A and C96 when comparing them to the P-210s seemed more of an attempt to stir things up than a serious argument.

 

[tark]

Mentioning the Star Super A and C96 when comparing them to the P-210s seemed more of an attempt to stir things up than a serious argument.

I think not.. The Star will do everything the 210 will, except put all of its bullets into as tight a group at 50 meters. It equals the 210 in cosmetics and it costs but a fraction of the price. Its controls are equally friendly and so it its trigger pull (At least on mine. Five pounds, crisp, little over-travel) I don't think pointing that out is an "attempt to stir things up" at all. It is just simply pointing out a fact that the Spaniards were able to make a pistol close to a 210 in quality and efficiency for far less money. And so were the Belgians. And while we are on the subject, so was Colt, with any pre-war 1911 or 1911A1.

If I wanted to stir things up I would say something like this:
Comparing a P-210 to a C-96 is like comparing a piece of quartz to a diamond. The diamond is worth more, has had more impact on the history of civilization and is just plain prettier

I await your retaliatory broadside......

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Mentioning the Star Super A and C96 when comparing them to the P-210s seemed more of an attempt to stir things up than a serious argument.

I think not.. The Star will do everything the 210 will, except put all of its bullets into as tight a group at 50 meters.

An AIRSOFT metal gun could do all of the things a Star Super A does except put all of it's pellets into as tight a group at 30 meters. (Uh... Maybe. We might both be surprised.) And It wouldn't be hard to spruce up one of those metal versions to make it look pretty darned good, too. Do you consider that a serious argument?

As I said earlier, you seem to be the only one talking about cosmetics. Nearly everyone else in this discussion talking about the P210 was addressing the gun's function/performance, which is typically exceptional. Mentioning the Les Baer guns was appropriate, but continuing to tout a Star Super A -- a gun that doesn't shoot nearly as well as either a Les Baer or SIG P-210 -- but looks better while costing less isn't a very convincing argument.

The P-210 you found wanting was obviously an older P210 -- as they changed the mag release design some years back. The newer ones have more conventional mag releases and some models can even be much prettier than a Star Super A, as is obvious in the mage I posted in my prior reply. They just won't be as cheap. Neither will the Les Baer models.

 

[tark]

Ouch! That hurt! A most effective retaliatory broadside. I am re-loading my twelve pounders.

An AIRSOFT metal gun could do all of the things a Star Super A does except put all of it's pellets into as tight a group at 30 meters. (Uh... Maybe. We might both be surprised.)

Well I sure would be, if I could use the airsoft to defend my life, of kill a marauding coyote (I have those here in Illinois and I live in the country) or do any number of things a firearm can do and a plastic pellet gun cannot. Come on, Walt....that is a ridiculous argument. The Star as a firearm, can do everything the SIG can do, as a firearm, except shoot tight groups out of a rest which could never be duplicated by your average shooter anyway. And for far less money. All I'm saying is this; I think the P-210s reputation for excellence is somewhat over rated when you consider that other guns costing far less are almost as good. My prime examples are any pre war commercial Browning Hi-power and any Colt 1911 of the same time period, with a C before the serial #.


It

As I said earlier, you seem to be the only one talking about cosmetics.

And I'll keep right on talking about it. When I pay that much for a gun it damn sure better look pretty. I suppose I got that attitude from Les. He is strong on looks. Cosmetics was what attracted to that Star in the first place. There are no external machining marks anywhere, the back of the frame and slide are matched, the magwell is flared and the gun has a loaded chamber indicator and dot sights. Some custom features there. The blueing is flawless, or it was before the dings and dents it received over the years. Not the best pic but all I have is a cranky cell phone.

That 210 Target Model in your pic is surely a beautiful gun. It will retail for around $1500 to 1800 dollars, according to the SIG-SAUER website. That's a fair price, much less than I would have expected. I'm gonna have to stop in at the Brownell's store at Grinnell, Iowa and see if they have one.

So I can give it the hairy eyeball

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Come on, Walt....that is a ridiculous argument. The Star as a firearm, can do everything the SIG can do, as a firearm, except shoot tight groups out of a rest which could never be duplicated by your average shooter anyway. And for far less money.

A similar argument might be made when a used Glock 34 is compared to your Star Super A or the SIG P210. (I picked up my first Glock 35 for $350.) I suspect the Glock might shoot tighter groups than the Super A, and I would prefer the Glock to the Star if I were using a gun in self-defense or home-defense situation.

Beautiful deep blued finishes, like engraving, are great to look at but those cosmetic characteristics don't make the gun more reliable or more accurate. Beauty is only finish deep, so to speak.

That 210 Target Model in your pic is surely a beautiful gun. It will retail for around $1500 to 1800 dollars, according to the SIG-SAUER website.

The gun pictured above is the discontinued SIG P-210 Legend Super Target Silver. I've been unable to find a price for that model, but the standard black finish versions sell for about $3500. This is from the SIG site: http://www.sigsauerguns.com/sig-p210-legend-super-target.html Other models that sold for under $3000 were not/are not quite so slick, and while they share many traits the pricier models, the long slide isn't one of them.