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P210

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Cooldill, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    Tark, yes my HBNM is way over 4 years old. I'd have to dig through my records to be sure, but I think I ordered it back in '98. The checkering is nicely done, but the slide/frame fit is such that the slide moves on the frame in what I would describe as "fits and starts". That is, there are very tight spots and spots where no resistance is felt. I'm not mad about it Tark, may have been late Friday afternoon;) As compared to the 210s under discussion, the 210's slide frame fit, Swiss or German, is just very smooth over it's full travel, with no play or slop. I gotta admit I don't know how they accomplish this on production pistol, especially one originally conceived as a military/service sidearm.

    About that P210 trigger pull. Very different from the pivoting trigger Stars I had. The Stars felt very similar to a regular 1911. With the P210, as you pull the trigger, there is what I would describe as a tiny bit of slack, than about 2 1/2# of take up where the hammer is cammed back slightly, then a clean single action type stage of about 1# where the hammer is dropped. I guess with this system, SIG could have a trigger that was light and clean, yet perfectly safe. Don't remember if you said you'd handled or shot a 210, but if you can arrange it, try the 210 trigger and you'll feel what I have tried to describe.
     
  2. tark

    tark Member

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    Easy, Walt, don't blow a gasket.
    No it isn't
    It isn't fairly close either, it is superior.
    Don't know that one, so I'll give you a point scored.

    You seem pretty upset, Walt. I can sense that you have little respect for anyone who doesn't agree with you and that you become rather angry when they don't listen to your reasoning. Your Emphasis on the word "you" is an indicator. I have tried not to get into a fight with you and I have even tried to inject a little humor into the conversation. Read post #62. And the words "fairly close" aren't exactly a strong endorsement, more like damning with faint praise.

    Tomorrow, I will have a look at some P-210 at Simpson's. I was going to go earlier in the week but Mr. Gout said no. I'll post my impressions
     
  3. tark

    tark Member

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    I started checkering for Les in 92 and started fitting frames and slides seven years later, in addition to checkering. I fit most but not all of the guns. If I fit it you will find a "W" and the full serial # stamped on the bottom of the slide.

    The condition you describe sounds rather odd. Are you checking the fit with the slide and the frame completely stripped? that is the best way to see how tight things really are. I would remove all oil from the two, and then place a single drop each frame rail. Too much oil can make the fit seem tighter than it is.
     
  4. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    You seem to imply/suggest that maybe I'm reading too much into your use of "fairly close" -- saying it's a way to (jokingly?) damn with faint praise. Perhaps I did read too much into your use of that term -- but if I did, it may be because you used that exact same term earlier, in a very similar context -- but in that case you clearly were NOT damning with faint praise or denigrating the Star Super A in any way Maybe I am misreading -- but some might think you've simply chosen to use the same term differently.

    As for the YOU... Should I have used the third person, or a more formal form of address? Should I have said, "Someone said"? Or was capitalization the issue? YOU seemed the best word choice at the time, because it identified the only person in this discussion who seemed to consider the Star Super A -- apparently a good gun that might be reliable/durable, and reasonably well-fit and finished -- but not a close match in accuracy to the P210 -- to be fairly close to a sig p-210. It seemed equally important to you that it could be had for a lot less money.

    If superior accuracy is not one of the Star Super A's traits why did you even mention it? You can buy a lot beautiful guns for less money than a P-210, and their accuracy might be pretty good, too. I guess they're fairly close, too? Your early complaint about the P210 wasn't that it was not accurate, but simply that better accuracy was available for comparble (or maybe less) money. What does "fairly close" mean if the Super A and the other guns in question aren't in the same league -- when this whole discussion has been focused on P210-level (or better) accuracy?

    Words and definitions can be difficult. It took a while to get you define what you meant by "accuracy better than the P-210", and that ended up, I think, being 1-hole groups at 50 yards. Maybe we should go through that same drill with "fairly close"?

    You said read #62. I did. I also read #59:

    Implicit in that claim (stated more directly elsewhere, I think) was that any number of shops could offer "shoot rings around it" (i.e, much better) accuracy for the same money. "Shooting rings around it" is an impressive claim.

    My P-210 came with a proof target showing a 5-shot 1.75" group at 50 meters, or roughly 55 yards. That ought to be almost a one-hole group at 25 yards. And my proof target group was larger than some of the proof targets I've seen for other P210s.

    I think the largest 5-shot 1-hole group possible with a .45s is about 1.25"; while the largest 5-shot 1-hole group possible with a 9mm is .87". I think that .45 group is roughly 40% larger than the 9mm group. Either group, of course, could be smaller, and that would be truly impressive!

    Les Baer advertises a number of special-purpose competition pistols and the one offering the smallest group, the Bullseye Wadcutter Pistol with Optical Mount, can do a 2.5" group at 50 yards. That gun is very reasonably priced, starting at around $2500! Wilson Combat says that one of its Pinnacle models (which have a lot of work invested in finish and engraving) can do a 1" group at 25 yards (I think that 1" group roughly converts to a 2" group at that greater distance -- and might be a 1-hole group at 25 yards, but not at 50...) That's still a bigger group than my P-210-6 using a smaller bullet. That Wilson Combat model sells for around $8,000, but I suspect Wilson can offer you similar precision for a couple of thousand dollars less -- with a "Plain Jane" Pinnacle.

    If the new SIG P210s sell in the $2500-$4500 range, and continue to be as accurate as prior P210s, they'll probably be pretty popular and I'd expect SIG to sell a lot of them -- they've upgraded the guns to remove many of the things that many of us found aggravating: I would expect the the P-210s to be pretty accurate.

    If the new 210s aren't as good as the older ones, we can switch to a P226 X-5, which many feel is just as accurate.. Some P-226 X-5 models models can be had for less than $3000, and the price (higher or lower) seems to be closely tied to the trigger options.. I paid $1,400 for a used (but barely fired, and pictured earlier) P-226 X-5 SA Competition about three or four years ago, but it didn't have the adjustable trigger.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  5. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    Tark, thanks for the info. You're off the hook, no "W" and only the last three of the serial number on the disconnector rail. Then there are three other numbers I can't relate to anything. This is the same gun that I mentioned the thumb safety had been welded up and refitted as received. Maybe a new guy fitted this one;) Don't care, has proven to be a reliable and accurate pistol over the last 19 years or so.
     
  6. tark

    tark Member

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    That one was fitted by by an man who left a month or so after I started fitting. I promised Les I would use no names on this forum, current or former, other than Brenda's. Everyone knows Brenda.

    HI WALT !!
    Uh..... yes, they are. :D
    I'm probably just the only person who said so. And yes, it is equally important. It's actually damned important to me. If I can buy a pistol that is 2/3 as good as a 210, at 1/5 or 1/6 the price, I think that is significant. I dont shoot well enough to tell the difference anyway. LOL.
    When you capitalize the word "you", used in the second person, it transforms the word into a pejorative, which is kinda impolite. I told you my name in a previous post. You could use that.......NOW!!

    Allow me now to smooth your rumpled feathers and soothe your agitated state of mind. I examined three P-210s today at Simpson's, all Swiss made, two in the fifties and one in the 60s. One was a commercial model, the other two, military issue.

    I will now report honestly on what I saw:

    They were, all three, everything they were claimed to be. The legend is true. They were three of the most beautifully fitted and FINISHED (uh-oh there's that word again :eek: ) pistols I have ever seen. The 210 is without a doubt, as far as I am concerned, perhaps the highest quality production autoloading pistol ever made. But I will still put my 99% unfired after proofing C-96 up against one, quality wise. I have examined a Korth 9mm at my last shot show, Besides being ugly, it didn't even begin to match up to what I saw today.

    I tried as hard as I could to find a flaw in any of the three, and I failed. Frame to slide fit was perfect. No play, either side to side or up and down. This really impressed me. There were no CNC machines back then. Those slides were fit the same way I fit slides for Les, by hand. Barrel lockup was perfect no movement with the slide in battery, at either end. I thought I might find a little wiggle at the muzzle because of the lack of a bushing, but there was none. They locked up like a bank vault. THAT'S why they are so accurate. All small parts were polished and fitted perfectly. The safeties were difficult to apply, but easy to take off safe. That is not a criticism, that is exactly what you want. Safeties are engaged in a non-stressful environment, they are dis-engaged in exactly the opposite state, at least on a combat pistol.

    And then there was that trigger! I have never felt anything like it. I think I'm in love:). I like triggers with a lot of travel. I'll take an AK trigger over an ARs anyday. I actually don't like the trigger on a tuned 1911. Almost no take-up, breaks at three or four pounds and no over travel. There is almost no movement in the damn thing! I have never felt a trigger like the 210s. It is butter smooth and very light until it reaches the second stage, which it easily detectable. Then it seems to lighten to maybe two pounds at most, and it breaks like glass. Another reason why they are so accurate.

    Bottom line, that sucker is mine when the next oil check comes in.

    OK, Walt, after what I saw today.......the Star is maybe HALF a P-210. Is that better? Maybe...kinda sorta fairly close? How bout' almost fairly close? Come on, Walt...throw me a bone....!
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  7. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    OK, Tark. I understand your response to the language in question.

    I've been involved in internet discussions for years -- at least since the late '80s.. I've also spent quite a few years working as a technical writer and doing copy writing as a side-line business (doing advertising brochures, direct mail, etc.). I also did a number of self-paced training programs dealing with sensitive issues for my day-job, while working for a major bank for many years.

    Your description of the use of YOU (capitalized) is the first time I've seen anyone describe its use in that manner as pejorative or impolite. Sorry for the inferred impoliteness. THAT was not my intent. I'm generally more direct when I'm trying to be impolite. :)

    In the writing business, especially technical writing, you learn quickly that it's easy to write so you're understood; but much harder to write so that you're NOT misunderstood
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  8. tark

    tark Member

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    I think we understand one another, Walt. Engaging in verbal fisticuffs with you has been a lot of fun, and it is rare that I get to do so with someone of your obvious intellect. I miss some of the monumental battles between Nom De Forum and Cee Zee and myself. I have not see the like of such until this thread. Haven't heard from either of those two in a long time. Hope everything with them is well.

    I think I will be happy to declare you the winner of this Thread. I had no idea that P-210s were that good, having had no contact with them that I can remember until today. I can say with all truthfulness That I was "gob smacked", as the Aussies would say, at the quality of the things.

    I'm gonna get me one......!! :)

    Good shooting

    John Williams
     
  9. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    All that happened in this prolonged many-partnered discussion was that the nature of the P210 was described and explored. No winners or losers. You and I just took a side-trip while on the road to that destination.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  10. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    Tark, Glad you got to examine some examples of the P210. They have always felt to me like a solid piece of steel when in battery. I thought you might not like the 210 trigger, light, clean, but so much different than the 1911. Hope the next oil check is a good one;)
     
  11. tark

    tark Member

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    Me too!!! I'll know in three more days.
     
  12. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I'll say it's different.
    A good 1911 has a miniscule takeup required to ensure the sear resetting after the shot. Then a crisp break with imperceptible movement.
    The P210 has a THREE stage trigger, takeup, slack, and finally a slightly soft break.
     
  13. tark

    tark Member

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    Exactly! It was (is) unlike anything I have ever felt and I fell in love with it instantly!
     

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