Quantcast

PA halting sales of ALL firearms on Labor Day for 5 days..

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bg, Aug 22, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bg

    bg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    903
    Location:
    When you find out, let me know..
    Well PA has decided that the insta check system has to be upgraded and they
    think the last big summer holiday of the season is the perfect time..Wow !

    http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5guns.6003599aug21,0,5104828.story?coll=all_tab01_layout
    excerpt

    What a direct slap in the face to a legal commerce..
     
  2. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,544
    Location:
    FL
    Wouldn't this make for good grounds for a suit basing these checks as an infringement? Any lawyers willing to chime in?
     
  3. canopy2k

    canopy2k Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Messages:
    71
    Does the PA CCW allow for bypassing the background check?

    c2k
     
  4. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,456
    Location:
    In the land of make believe.
    That is horsecrap. I would argue that they are interfering with the free trade and lawful commerce.
     
  5. kermit315

    kermit315 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    454
    Location:
    Pensacola, FL
    wish i was a lawyer (with enough money and backing to do something about it)

    this is indeed crap.
     
  6. Michigander

    Michigander Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Michigan
    And if they can shut it down for 5 days for upgrades, what about when they will have to shut it down for 10 days? How about 30 days?
     
  7. 308win

    308win Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    2,918
    Location:
    Ohio - The Heart of it All
    They could upgrade a parallel system, test it, and then move it into production if they were at all interested in not interfering in peoples lives.
     
  8. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,039
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    I have a hunch they're actually testing public response to the abolition of the right to keep and bear arms.
     
  9. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Location:
    Cumming GA
    Anyone actually going to try buying a gun that day, be denied, get IN WRITING the reason for the denial, then take it to court? Or at least make the attempt & gather the documents, and let us pick 'em apart on this thread (by what laws is the suspension invoked? why are those laws not valid?).

    The one argument I see against that for the moment is that most RKBA cases are likely on hold until DC vs. Heller is resolved. Once that comes up pro-individual-right, it should be a slam-dunk (along with ten thousand other individual laws that also need addressing the same way).
     
  10. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Michiana
    Give them an inch and they take a mile.
     
  11. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,080
    Location:
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    PA law allows for disregard of the PICS check if it's down for 48 hours or more (dealers are allowed to make sales based on NICS after that point, and have a legal defense). the PSP doesn't like to point that out.
     
  12. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,039
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    I hope you're right.
     
  13. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    10,041
    Location:
    Kampong Cham, Cambodia
    PA CCP does not bypass PICS because it does not tie in with a federal check when you get your PA concealed carry permit therefore the Feds won't allow the bypass.
     
  14. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,146
    Location:
    Wooster, Ohio
    I'd say it leaves the state open for two separate class action suits, and numerous individuals. The would-be buyers could sue based on constitutional grounds. The retailers could sue collectively and jointly based on their losses, especially Bass Pro Shops. They were not given adequate notice so their ad could be rewritten, which often requires up to 6 months advance notice, as some places design their ads that far in advance.

    This does sound like someone deciding to screw gun owners. No one with a brain would schedule this maintainance over a notorious sales holiday weekend. If NICS can back up the state system, the state should have let FFLs know.

    There is a lawsuit in there somewhere, and maybe a way to change the system for the better, as long as no part of it sets precedence for collective right. I would throw some inqiries to the Attorney General for the state about what the retailers can do to save their profits and see where that leads.
     
  15. makarova

    makarova Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    137
    Thanks General

    I know that federal law says something to the effect that the NICS system has a limited amount of time to deny a purchase. If it fails to do so within that time the sale may proceed even if the computer is down. At least thats my understanding. It sounds like Pa law has a similar provision. Can you expand on that for us?
     
  16. ilbob

    ilbob Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    15,236
    Location:
    Illinois
    Simple to say but very difficult to actually do.

    My guess is no one really thought it would be that big of a deal and picked a Holiday weekend because that is when virtually all such computer upgrades are done. In most cases, a 3 day weekend is the least offensive time to do such upgrades.
     
  17. Colt

    Colt Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    670
    Location:
    PA
    Wonder what pistol this is.
     
  18. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,117
    Location:
    Delaware home of tax free shopping
    Actually its very simple, the system has to give you a procede or Deny within 48 hours if they cant you take the gun home. Its written in the federal law. so they can sell guns on the second fill out all the paper work, and on sept 4 the customer can come get his gun. Its a 48 hour waiting period.
     
  19. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,146
    Location:
    Wooster, Ohio
    Mak, the federal law says an FFL can proceeed with a sale after no reply is given within three business days. On a holiday, this is 4-7 days, depending on where the holiday falls in the week. I know some poor schmuck has to sit at a desk and take the calls on holidays, but the real examiners likely get the day off and if the call needs to be bumped to them for any reason, expect to be delayed.

    Believe me, there is a lot of money to be lost in this situation by Bass Pro Shops and other retailers. If they have a sale, and can't do the transfers because the system is down, they'll have to hold all of the guns and call them in after the system comes back up. The people don't go home with the gun (bad if they're from outa state), the store doesn't make any money until the people pick them up, and many will simply refuse to buy because of the inconvenience.
    Figure 500 guns (maybe low number?) at average $500..that's $250,000 to be lost because the state drops the ball. Even NICS has a back-up. I phoned in one during a building fire-drill and someone processed it.

    This is an example of the system failing to meet it's supposed design. It's not supposed to infronge on rights, or inconvenience anyone but the criminals.

    I think the system needs to take a hike for some long needed fresh air.
     
  20. America_without_liberals

    America_without_liberals Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    93
    I could just see my boss's reaction if I told him that I was taking our whole network down for 5 minutes let alone 5 days. This just doesn't happen in real world IT infrastructure. I would be out looking for a new job faster than I could blink. :banghead:

    The next thing we as PA residents will hear is good old uncle Ed saying that he has to raise taxes again due to the lost revenue from this 5 day system outage. They charge $6 for each insta-check pass or fail. :barf:

    I know somebody mentioned it before but something needs to be done for CCW holders to be able to skip this expense every time. At least run my permit number against something so that I don't have to fill out the stupid paperwork.
     
  21. coat4gun

    coat4gun Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    SE, PA
    Got this email from NRA-ILA. Apparently NRA is trying to do something about this and needs our help by bombarding the Governor's office with disapproving emails.

     
  22. Fburgtx

    Fburgtx Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    462
    I just called the NRA and they couldn't give me an informed answer regarding what they intend to do in Pennsylvania. Frankly, I think they should have a team of attorneys all over this to file injunctions to prevent the stoppage.

    This sets a bad precedent in regards to the computerized background check. The next thing you know, states will want to shut it down for "weekly maintenance" on weekends (and effectively eliminate gun shows) and in the middle of the Christmas shopping season (effectively ruining gun dealers chance of being able to run a succesful business).

    There should be absolutely no reason why the state couldn't set up a parallel system and then do the changeover in a matter of hours, not days.

    I realize that I'm down in Texas and this won't have much direct effect on me, but as I said, the precedent that this sets is very bad and the NRA has no excuse for "dilly-dallying" on it.
     
  23. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    832
    Location:
    Texas
    Well the catch is, last time I checked, the NRA supports background checks so I doubt they'd actually do anything about this at all. If they do still take that stance and then get involved with this, they're hypocrites.

    As much as I hate to say it, we need an attorney.

    Failing that, I like the idea of going down there and trying to buy a gun so you can get the reason for the rejection in writing and taking that to court.
     
  24. RoadkingLarry

    RoadkingLarry Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    884
    Location:
    NE Oklahoma
    Empty holster march on the state Capitol on Monday Morning
     
  25. hnk45acp

    hnk45acp Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    719
    I don't think you could sue because you could technically buy the gun (therefore not interfering in commerce) you just can't take it home.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice