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PA halting sales of ALL firearms on Labor Day for 5 days..

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bg, Aug 22, 2007.

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  1. alan

    alan Member

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    One of two letters on this I've written to my local paper, The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

    Editor:

    It appears that Governor Rendell and his minions, re the proposed shutdown of the PICS, might have in effect, grabbed the proverbial Tiger By It's Tail. They seem now searching for some safe, graceful way of letting go. Hopefully, this will turn out to be an unattainable goal, leaving them badly clawed. One hopes that the tiger will suffer no ill effects from having perhaps fed upon Rendell, Col. Miller or other antigun apparatchiks, some of whom are to be found in The State Legislature.

    Tom Barnes today quotes Rendell as describing himself "conservative on some issues, moderate on other issues, and liberal on some issues". Rendell, while Mayor of Philadelphia, led the charge re attempts to bring suit against gun makers and dealers, blaming them for the criminal acts of others, over whom they had no control whatever. Seems that his past performances are something he would rather not discuss, funny thing that.

    By the way, re references to the PSP having come up with the latest in anti gun, extra legal scams, Col. Miller, their commandant serves at the pleasure of the governor, no? Given the PSP's past record, which includes their illegal demand for and collection of the Social Security Numbers of gun purchasers, which led to, in Federal Court, the Stollenwerk case and PSP's defeat, how come Governor Rendell has retained Colonel Miller? Does such action on Rendell's part indicate a conservative, moderate or liberal disposition?

    Now then, there might be a legitimate reason, purpose or necessity for what has been described as "a new data base", one containing the most up-to-date form of criminal records, why weren’t criminal records kept up to date previously, but why undertake this updating, which supposedly requires the complete shutdown of PICS, at the onset of hunting season? Interesting question, no? So at the end of the thing, we come to the following, unanswered question, a question for Governor Rendell and Co to answer. Why was what might be a perfectly legitimate upgrading/updating of an existing system, no matter what one might think of the system itself, undertaken in such a blunderingly stupid manner?
     
  2. Roccobro

    Roccobro Member

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    Good post Delta.

    Welcome to THR! :D

    Justin
     
  3. SJG26

    SJG26 member

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    MAster Blaster said:
    "Cabelas should take out an ad mentioning that, special no background check sale courtesy of Governor Rendel, Buy your gun on the 2nd take it home on the 4th, buy it on the 3rd take it home on the 5th. ETC."

    Just got in from the Hamburg store---great price on 30-06.........................signs are up all over the firearms dept - NO FIREARM SALES SEPT 2-6, etc, etc......................

    No one is gonna stick there neck out on the 48-hr rule---imagine it would be a jackpot for criminals............no NICS-----gimmie my gun..................The state will be the cause of sales slipped thru to those not normally allowed.
     
  4. otcconan

    otcconan Member

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    Hey, isn't Labor Day National Ammo Day anyway? Just buy more ammo instead.
     
  5. JLStorm

    JLStorm Member

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    I wrote rendell a nice little letter.
     
  6. DeltaII5

    DeltaII5 Member

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    People are forgetting. These are FEDERALLY licensed dealers. Even if PICS was down NICS would still come into play just like our neighbors in Ohio do (unless things have changed). The letter specifically states no "approval numbers" will be issue, this only relates to the PA paperwork, not the 4473.

    This is just another abuse of the PSP. First the social security numbers which was resolved in court. Then the refusal of the PSP to honor out of state non-res carry permits, which our AG had to issue a letter ordering them to honor it. And of course our infamous non-registration pistol registration system which the state senate is attempting to pass a bill to get rid off.

    Rendell would be happy if our system was down for 6 months to upgrade.

    Gun dealers file suit over planned sales freeze
     
  7. packnrat

    packnrat Member

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    every body in pa should buy a gun during this so called shutdown
    i am not a resadent of pa, so i can not do this public out cry.

    but this will send a message to the gov that they can not and should not dissobay the laws we all live under.

    legal - not leagle, only a court can tell for sure,
    can you say class action suit if no guns can be sold.

    how about halting all auto sales (look at how many die on our freeways)
    dmv must up date at times...right?
     
  8. Zeke/PA

    Zeke/PA Member

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    canopy2k,
    The CCW permit here in PA does not preclude a backround check prior to a purchase.
    Zeke
     
  9. Mr White

    Mr White Member

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    I just have to add my $.02 here.

    Being an IT person and someone who has upgraded large databases and has been responsible for large scale network upgrades, I have to say that I can feel for the PSP on this one. I don't know exactly what the scope of the work is, but if it involves moving to a new database structure and/or engine and upgrading software all at once, 5 days isn't unrealistic.

    Converting a huge database from say, SQL to Oracle, or something like that, may take a day or more to run the conversion alone. After that, there are validity checks, and much testing to ensure that everything is right. If client software is being changed as well, there are PCs to upgrade, testing and training associated with that as well.

    Also, it has been our standard practice to overestimate planned outages when notifying customers. Tell them it'll be down for 5 days, then everyone's happier than a pig in shi...mud when you have everything back online in 3. Tell them it'll be done in 2 days and they'll be at your door with torches and pitchforks if it takes 3.

    Honestly, is anyone going to be that terribly inconvenienced if they can't buy a gun a gun for 5 days in September? Buy it on the 1st or wait til the 7th. The gun dealers won't be losing anything. People who want guns will still buy them, either on the 1st or the 7th. Its not like they'll leave and go to the next gun store, because he's in the same boat.

    Sorry, but having been in their shoes before, I gotta side with the PSP IT folks on this one. I really don't think its part of a grand conspiracy to deprive us of our Second Amendment rights, but just some computer geeks stuck with a tough job, and trying to do it the best that they can.
     
  10. SouthpawShootr

    SouthpawShootr Member

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    That's just about the industry standard for software upgrades. But then again, this is government we're talking here. Inefficiency is their watchword.
     
  11. DeltaII5

    DeltaII5 Member

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    This isn't about the database, this is about the PSP ignoring the law yet again. The state law forbids them from suspending gun sales. They simply can't do it, but they are, they are telling dealers they can't sell guns. Thats the problem. We have NICS that has to be used if PICS goes down, but the PSP is saying "sorry no gun sales" which they cannot do. PICS can be down for a month for all I care, because state law says after 48 hours you can proceed without an authorization number, but the PSP is lying to the dealers and saying they can't sell guns. One reason why the lawsuit has been filed. Check out the article I linked previously.
     
  12. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    Mr White, the situation here is not about the tech so much as the ineptitude of the people running the show. Given the gov's track record, many here feel this is yet another time they are testing the fences to see what they can get away with. If they can shut it down for a week, why not a month, or a year, or indefinite. It may one day come to that. What you hear in this forum are the voices of people who are sick of having to watch their elected representatives every minute of every day, like some unruly toddlers.

    Key points from this shut-down
    1:It's unconstitutional to prevent the populace from purchasing arms
    2:The officials are illegally telling the sellers they can't do business via the back-up clause specificly written in the law for this sort of situation.
    3:Retailers and private businesses are losing money because the government is preventing them from doing business, despite being federally licensed to do so.

    You don't have any problem with this?!!?
     
  13. SouthpawShootr

    SouthpawShootr Member

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    This is exactly the issue. What to do when those charged with enforcing the laws flagrantly and freely violate them as they please. Agencies across the country feel like they can pull stunts of this sort simply b/c they have what they say is a good reason.

    Someone else said they're pushing to see what they can get away with. That may not be the original intent of those career bureaucrats who started this, but the end result is that the government will think they can get away with it again b/c the public tolerated it the last time. The next time, they might decide to take the system down for a month for "maintenance." The reaction must be strong and noisy. If a lawsuit is necessary to embarrass the state and force them to follow their own laws, then so be it. It's a good use of our legal system.
     
  14. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

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    If someone is out to kill them, yes.
    There are documented cases of people being murdered by stalkers etc. while waiting for a "cooling off waiting period" to pass so they could pick up a self-defense gun.
     
  15. PennsyPlinker

    PennsyPlinker Member

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    I've read all the comments, perspectives, etc. I don't have a lot of good to say about any about my own interactions with the Staats Polezei here in PA, so maybe that colors my own perspective. Mrs. Plinker works for the electric company and does just this kind of work. I can just imagine what people would say if there was going to be no electricity delivered for five days while they upgraded the system! :what:

    Lets face it. This is not about the guns only, this is about the government. This system, according to the report of our own beloved governor, is used for checking out teachers, day care workers, anyone who wants a job that requires a clean criminal background. This isn't just some ancillary program that will inconvenience a few people. If the private world can bring a system live in parallel, then the government should be able to do it too. But the problem is, government is accountable to no one except itself, and rarely then. This is just one more example of arrogance combined with ineptitude brought to us by our benevolent overlords.
     
  16. Fburgtx

    Fburgtx Member

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    The state SURELY has a system that the police will be using for those 5 days. You can't tell me that the police won't be able to run criminal background checks for that time period (no way would they allow a 5 day moratorium on checks for outstanding warrants, etc.) That being the case, pay 5 or 10 people to sit in an office and take calls and run the checks on the system that the police use!!

    As I said earlier, the issue here is that if the government gets away with this, they'll soon decide that every Sat. and Sun. is "maintenance day". Then it will be certain obscure holidays. Then they'll decide that guns can only be purchased one day a week, and everyone has to go downtown and stand in line to get their "background clearance authorization number". It just sets a bad precedent and it's better to raise heck about it now than wait until some politician decides he can save a few bucks by not staffing the system and running the checks only a few days a week.
     
  17. alan

    alan Member

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    Mr White:

    Re "your 2 cents, note the following.

    Neither, based on the documented record, are Governor Rendell nor the Coal and Iron Cops, currently the PSP trustworthy.

    Rendell, while Mayor of Philadelphia led the charge for suits against gun makers and dealers, trying to hold them responsible for the criminal acts of third parties over whom they had no control.

    The PSP illegally demanded and collected the Social Security Numbers of gun purchasers, see Stollenwerk v. Miller, U.S. District Court, 3rd District. The PSP also operate and retain a "purchase record" of handguns. It isn't a registry, they claim, registries being prohibited by law. Laughter is heard, listen for it. Finally, how come that all these criminal records became "incomplete"?

    If they are allowed to get away with this stunt, how long will this shutdown actually take, how long will it be before the onset of other PICS shutdowns, and what might be their duration?

    The foregoing are just a few questiions that pop into mind. They need to be answered and answers from either Rendell or the PSP are conspicous by their absense.
     
  18. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Quote:
    I don't know about .gov systems, but the .mil systems I've been involved in updating for the last 15 years would never, ever have a five-day outage for an upgrade. For a major update or system replacement we'd ensure that the parallel system was up and running for several days before the old system was taken down to ensure continuity of operation.
     
  19. alan

    alan Member

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    Bubbles writes:

    I don't know about .gov systems, but the .mil systems I've been involved in updating for the last 15 years would never, ever have a five-day outage for an upgrade. For a major update or system replacement we'd ensure that the parallel system was up and running for several days before the old system was taken down to ensure continuity of operation.

    ------------------

    "Continuity of operations" is an iteresting aspect of this fiasco, especially respecting gun purchases, not the only thing involved, or so we are told.

    Re the past performances and positions taken by Governor Rendell, is "continuity of operations" especially respecting the sale of firearms somethng that he/they are interested in maintaining, or would he/they rather block such operations.

    Draw your own conclusions, based on the above mentioned reecord.
     
  20. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    Yes, that would work out better. Even though I don't live there I could bear not being able to but a gun for 5 days(I already have some...) althoughI would understand one day better than 5 days.

    That is also a good point. Although it seems hard to beleive with the way things go these days I can see that happening.
     
  21. America_without_liberals

    America_without_liberals Member

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    This guy is usually on our our side in Harrisburg but this time he is dancing around the issue a bit.

    http://samrohrer.com/mail/util.cfm?gpiv=1999936636.29410.448&gen=1

    Rohrer Endorses Pro-Second Amendment, Pro-Sportsmen Solutions to Reduce Fallout from State Police Background Check Shutdown
    House Republican Game and Fisheries Committee Chairman Sam Rohrer (R-Berks) offered several pro-Second Amendment, pro-sportsmen solutions today to remedy both the Constitutional and economic impact of the upcoming Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) shutdown for computer software upgrades.

    Operated and maintained by the Pennsylvania State Police, PICS provides Computerized Criminal History Record Information (CCHRI) for background checks involving not only firearm purchases, but also for public education employees such as teachers and school bus drivers.

    “As House Republican Game and Fisheries Committee Chairman, I have yet to see any convincing reason for Pennsylvania gun owners and hunters to preclude the logical conclusion that this procedure is anything other than poorly planned, routine maintenance as reluctantly acknowledged by both the Rendell administration and the state police," said Rohrer. “However, I am deeply concerned about the potential and irrevocable damage that this short-notice, PICS shutdown will have on reputable firearm dealers, especially family-owned gun shops, during one of the single busiest retail seasons of the year."

    The state police have scheduled the shutdown of the PICS system, which allows retailers to conduct instant background checks of potential gun purchases. During the shutdown, gun purchases in Pennsylvania will be temporarily suspended from 6 pm Sunday, Sept. 2, until noon on Thursday, Sept. 6. Unfortunately, the PICS shutdown directly coincides with the opening of dove and Canada goose hunting season in Pennsylvania, as well as with Labor Day, which is traditionally one of the busiest times for gun purchases throughout the state.

    “Based on the inescapably poor timing of this decision and the governor’s extremely vocal support for ‘One Gun a Month' waiting periods, banning certain legal firearms and ammunition, and many other ineffective gun control measures, I am also not surprised that many law-abiding citizens remain very suspicious and angered at these further restrictions on their second amendment right to purchase a firearm," said Rohrer. “Fortunately, there are already several viable solutions that exist to proactively reduce the fallout of future PICS shutdowns—not the least of which involves enacting House Bill 1029 to eliminate redundant background checks for any Pennsylvania citizens who can produce a valid right to carry permit."

    Supported by Rohrer and more than 30 other co-sponsors, House Bill 1029 would exempt individuals with a valid Pennsylvania right to carry permit from the cumbersome, expensive and redundant requirement of additional PICS checks each time they purchase a gun. According to Rohrer, not only do these repetitive background checks infringe upon personal freedom, but take away valuable time and resources from law enforcement agencies.

    “It’s no secret to anyone that uses PICS on a regular basis that the system often experiences overloads which impede legal firearm transactions, especially during periods of high volume sales just prior to hunting season and Christmas," said Rohrer. “These frequent interruptions of legitimate commerce have already had a negative and lasting effect on many retailers throughout our state. In short, gun owners who abide by the laws and are responsible with their firearms should not be penalized with the loss of their Second Amendment rights for any amount of time or reason, especially if they already have been legally cleared to possess and carry a firearm."

    Other more immediate and non-legislative remedies supported by Rohrer, Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Against Crime, Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs and many other sportsmen’s groups across the Commonwealth include:

    * Petitioning State Attorney General Tom Corbett to request that the federal Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) designate Pennsylvania as a Permanent Brady Alternative state. Similar to the legislative objective behind House Bill 1029, 19 other states have obtained Permanent Brady Alternative status to exempt anyone who already possesses a valid right to carry permit from the background check process. The state police would still be informed of any non-background check connected purchases through paper invoices.
    * Allowing firearm dealers to use other available background check options such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s national instant check system any time the PICS system is non-operational.
    * Performing PICS maintenance during nighttime hours when gun shops are closed, as is the current practice with the FBI’s instant check system.
    * Postponing the upcoming PICS upgrade until after the conclusion of Pennsylvania’s 2007-08 deer season.
    * At minimum, providing more ample notice of future PICS shutdowns to Pennsylvania firearm dealers.

    For nearly 216 years, the fundamental right to keep and bear arms has served America well as one of the foundations of our nation and our freedom," concluded Rohrer. “Regardless of individual positions about gun control, it is the unquestionable, Constitutional obligation as lawmakers to ensure that our laws, legal system, and even our modern background check technology do nothing to infringe upon the rights of law-abiding gun owners."

    Rep. Samuel Rohrer
    128th District
    Pennsylvania House of Representatives
    (610) 775-5130
    (717) 787-8550
    www.SamRohrer.com
    Contact: Ty McCauslin
    House Republican Public Relations
    (717) 772-9979
     
  22. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    I like this Rohrer guy. Those are true and bold statements leaning in the correct direction.
     
  23. Blackfork

    Blackfork Member

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    Enemies foreign and domestic

    .....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2007
  24. Satchel

    Satchel Member

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    "I like the idea of going down there and trying to buy a gun so you can get the reason for the rejection in writing and taking that to court."

    Who do you think will give you anything in writing. A retailer will simply tell you the system is down, come back when it is up and running and we'll sell you a gun. That's how it would work where I work.
     
  25. Satchel

    Satchel Member

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    "then the ATF will force CCW holders to go through a background check for every gun purchase."

    The background check takes all of 45 seconds. What's your point?
     
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