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Pacific NW Outing

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Ratdog68, Jun 28, 2009.

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  1. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    I was invited along for an overnight outing with a couple of my shooting friends. Kermit is the one teaching me how to make longbows, and his buddy Ron was leading the way since he knows the area more than the other two of us.

    Our trip overlooks Lake Cle Elum... sure beats spending the weekend in the city !! :what:

    [​IMG]

    The locals seemed friendly enough.... hmmm? Is this gal hittin' on me? I wouldn't mind hittin' on her later this fall !!

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    Ron and Kermit had gone up Friday morning and had spent a fair part of the day shooting modern toys before I got there. Kermit has a new Ruger single six .22/.22WM and a Ruger .44Mag. Note the gunbelt/cross draw holster he's wearing... he made that one (which I've posted pix of). Ron had brought along a pair of old, original Colt SAA gems... a blued .38Special and a nickel plated .45 LongColt. Those were VERY sweet toys, all of 'em.

    I met 'em in the afternoon, after getting off work for the day... it's about a 100 mile trek from my place to get there. I brought along a couple of the revolvers, just to bring along to show 'em. I haven't acquired any .454 round ball yet. I also brought along my T/C Patriot pistol and the T/C Cherokee carbine... both in .45 Cal.

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    Well... load er up became the battle cry.

    [​IMG]

    FINALLY !!! I'm getting a chance to break in a couple of my members of the holy black !! First... the Patriot !! I'm gonna be likin' shootin' this little baby ! I loaded it up with 25 gr. of 777 in fff, pillow ticking patches soaked in T/C bore butter and .433 ball. #11 CCI caps. It perfomed flawlessly with this combo.

    [​IMG]

    Ron started grinning when he got to shoot it...

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    Kermit's decided that he wants one now too. Another hooked !! :evil:

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    We went two rounds each with the Cherokee... it felt great to Kermit and I, but Ron got poked in the cheek with the stock each time and he wasn't too interested in any more of that one...

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    Now... did I screw up? Right where I have my left thumb... after Ron's second shot... I noticed that the stock has developed a crack ! I loaded it, once again... with 777 in fff, with 75 grains of powder... the same patches and the same .433 ball and CCI #11 caps. I'm searching for my manual to confirm what they advise for loads, and I recall that you need to back it off a little for 777 powder. I want to say that 90 grains is ok for a .45 rifle. Is my recollection all wet? I was careful to seat the ball against the powder at all times, and recall that 777 doesn't really like being packed "tight", so I was trying to be a little gentle with seating the ball. Right where my left thumb is, there's a screw head with a "backward comma" shaped brass washer like piece. The crack ascends at an angle just above the trigger, through the hole in the stock where the screw is and ends at the top of the stock... about even with "just forward of the nipple" on the left side of the stock. Needless to say, I was just sick to discover the crack. Kermit and I got to talking last night, and he's suspecting that there may've been some pressure on the wood where the screw goes through and that the shock of it being fired caused it to crack the stock. I'm hoping it was something like that, and not a result of me loading it too heavily. I'm also wondering whether I'll be able to wedge the crack open from the inside area and inject some epoxy into the crack and clamp it... sand it down and do some refinish... and check the screw for feeling like it binds as it goes through the wood. Since the Cherokee is no longer made by T/C... I doubt a replacement stock is going to be an option.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks like you guys had a lot of fun. Too bad about the gunstock cracking. I'd use superglue on that crack.
     
  3. Ginormous

    Ginormous Member

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    Fantastic view of the lake and surrounding area, as well as great pics of that fat doe!

    BTW, Acraglas bedding epoxy from Brownell's will fix that crack right up and stop further crack crawl in its tracks.
     
  4. Ginormous

    Ginormous Member

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    I meant to ask you Ratdog, is that a black tailed deer by any chance?
     
  5. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    Hey Ginormous....

    thanks on the tip on the epoxy... I'll give it an eyeball.

    Yessir... that is infact a blacktail doe. They're not the biggest critters, but about the only choice in Western WA. Eastern WA has some whitetails and some mulies.

    There were plenty of elk tracks in the area too.

    My buddy Kermit found some scat with hair in it... here kitty-kitty-kitty !!! I'd love to get myself a cougar !!! I'm told they're all white meat and very good eating too.

    BTW... I forgot to address "clean-up". A copper wire brush in the barrel, some T/C bore cleaner swabbed with cleaning patches netted me clean patches by the third patch on both of these... then swabbed with T/C bore butter at the end of the day's shooting. I'm likin' this Hogdon 777 powder !!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  6. Ginormous

    Ginormous Member

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    Hah! The only cougars we see around here, look like this:

    [​IMG]

    No idea what's in their scat, or how they taste. :what::D
     
  7. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    LOL

    I unnerstan'. :evil: Can it taste like chicken when it smells like tuna? :neener:

    I broke down the Cherokee rifle just now... well, both sides are cracked and the right side crack is hidden by the side plate. There's no pressure on the stock that I can see upon trying to extract that screw (which, BTW, secures to side plate to the stock).

    Haven't been able to locate my T/C manual for this gun... I'm beginning to wonder whether 75 grains was too heavy, or whether it had a hairline crack in it already when I bought it... and just hadn't caught it. I bought it used.
     
  8. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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  9. NobleSniper

    NobleSniper Member

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    Thats some nice looking country and looks like a good time was had by all. Hate to hear that about the stock on your TC.........that stinks. Will keep an eye out for ya ;)
     
  10. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    Thanks for that arcticap...

    F/U question to that. Refresh my rememberer... since what I was using is fff and not ff... would that equate to the 75 gr. being a lesser energy charge than ff would generate... or a greater one than ff?

    The Speer .433 round ball I was using doesn't indicate bullet weight... but, it would appear I was in the ball park for a good load afterall. Kinda comforting... I guess. :eek:
     
  11. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    fffg BP is smaller granule faster/hotter burnin' powder than ffg Black Powder..same goes for Pyrodex PS(pistol) and RS(rifle)...
     
  12. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    fffg is usually always greater than ffg, except sometimes when using 777, some ffg powder charges will be greater than fffg.
    That's exactly what was recently reported by chronograph readings from a .45 inline when comparing velocities of both granulations. It took nearly 100 grain powder loads before the 777 fffg exceeded the velocity of 777 ffg shooting a particular weight of bullet/sabot. So it's hard to say if that would also hold true when shooting the lighter patched round ball as a projectile.
    But one thing for certain is that 777 powder always seems to produce noticiably more felt recoil than equivalent amounts of other powders. So that does make it tougher to gauge how much 777 should be loaded.
     
  13. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    Smokin' Gun/Arcticap.... my digging seems to confirm the information you've helped me with. Faster burning is what I came up with too. I haven't found anything to indicate that I generated overly excessive loads within the gun with the charge I used.

    I found my T/C manual that came with my Patriot Pistol... it lists the "Seneca" rifle (not the Cherokee) in it's specs for acceptable loads. They show a .440 ball with 90 grains of ffg as the max load for that model... with 1980 fps and 1106 ft/lbs. of energy.

    Given... 75 grains of 777 is 15 grains more than a recommended 60 grains (15% less than standard BP)... I'd be surprised to hear that the gun is not designed to be able to handle a higher than max "published" load (as a safety margin).

    Is my thinking correct when I also suspect that the smaller ball (.433) would generate lower load numbers within the gun (than the spec'd .440) for a given powder charge?

    My only interest here... is to understand what happened. I'm ok with "if I goofed by accidently stuffin' too much powder in it, it's on me". My intent isn't to see how close to the edge I can live with loads, nor am I wantin' to blame anyone for my stock's failure. Nobody got hurt, glad that I was watchin' the gun and noticed it before things got ugly. I was trying to be reasonable with my recollection of charge size... and apparently just missed the upper limit by about 15 grains.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  14. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    I'm missing something.

    75 gr by volume of 777 is equivalent to 75X1.15=86.25 gr by volume of real black powder.

    T/C's max load recommendation is apparently 90 gr by volume of real black powder.

    It appears to me that by shooting 75 gr by volume of 777 you were well in compliance with T/C's specification. Where does this come from:
    Fifteen percent less than the (as I understand it) recommended maximum of 90 gr by volume of real black powder is 90x.85=76.5 gr.

    I don't see that the 60 grains number is any kind of a maximum limit.

    A pure lead .433 inch diameter ball weighs 122 grains. A .440 inch diameter pure lead ball weighs 128 grains, or 128/122=1.05, or 5 percent more than the .433 inch diameter ball. The .433 ball will generate a lower recoil load on the gunstock, but very much lower. It is in the right direction, however.

    Based on my understanding of the numbers you did not exceed the gun's recommended load limits. However, design safety limits are arbitrary statistical quantities. They're intended to provide a margin for unknown or unexpected events and variations (tolerance stackups) in manufacturing processes and material properties. Assuming that no damage will occur if such limits are violated is a gamble.
     
  15. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Some TC stocks can suffer damage while shooting recommended loads. I think that the safe maximum loading is for the barrel and doesn't reflect stresses on the stock.
    For instance, the TC New Englander 12 gauge is known to be at risk to stock damage by shooting heavy round ball loads through it even though the barrel is safe to do so.
    And the TC .45 Hawken stock would probably be able to withstand more shooting stress than the .45 Seneca stock even though both are being loaded within safe maximums.
    My other point is that the felt recoil from shooting larger amounts of 777 powder really does make the powder "feel" more than 15% stronger.
    IIRC there has been at least 1 report of a cap & ball revolver being damaged by shooting 777 through it.
    So even though the stock damage may have been inflicted to your Seneca previously, it could have been made worse by shooting it.
    Some stocks are simply made with built in stress points or have flawed wood that are exploited by shooting heavy powder loads, bullets or both.
    And some beautiful stocks can crack or suffer major damage like breaking clean through at the wrist just from being dropped or falling over on to the ground.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  16. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    You flat landers just don't know what you're missing out on by not living out here.... :D

    Nice report on the shooting. But it's too bad you didn't have any round balls for the Remmies yet.

    Part of any rifle's appeal is how "interesting" the wood is. But the wood that has the most intense figure is often the wood that is most prone to stress cracks, checking and other ills. It's highly likely that the wood was already cracking or had a stress point and was just waiting to happen. Still, a good idea to be checking on the load info "just in case".

    I'll second the idea of fixing it with some epoxy. Acriglass if you need to buy it anyway or any good non filled (as in clear) epoxy if you already have it. I wouldn't suggest 5 or 30 minute since it tends to get rather brittle with age. Stick with the 2'ish hour cure stuff. You want the clear type both so it won't color the stock as well as so it'll respond better to warming it up by not having fillers that get in the way.

    To make it extra runny so it'll fill well down into the crack you can heat up the stock a little. Something like sticking it into a heating duct with the heat on will do the job just fine. Or setting up a temporary "oven" by using a couple of 100 watt incandescent bulbs (remember what those are? :D) with the stock above and with a blanket over it to hold in the heat. Some air gap to avoid bulb contact will avoid any nasties. In the meantime mix up a bit of the slow cure stuff and let it sit for a few minutes to further meld. Once warm through to the core (likely around 10'ish minutes) pull the stock out of your duct and mask off the lower side of the crack. Apply some glue and note now it thins out upon warming up. A hair dryer set on high heat can help this along. The epoxy will turn quite watery with this warming trick and flow much like water down into the crack. That's why the masking tape on the other side so it won't just run out. Clean up any exterior epoxy with paper towel and rubbing alchohal. Mask more of the crack as you go and work on filling the crack in stages until it's completely filled.

    For a small open crack that you can't flex easily I don't recomend clamping it closed since it was a release of internal stress that caused it in the first place. No point in just glueing that same stress back into the stock. Just fill it and let the glue stabilize the wood in its new form. For longer cracks where you can close it completely or partially with some firm but not intense hand pressure clamping it shut isn't a bad idea. There's a bit of wood workers judgement call in this. You've done enough wood flexing stuff on your bows that you should be able to call this one pretty easily.
     
  17. Ginormous

    Ginormous Member

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    Who you calling flat lander? View from 45 minutes north of my home at 3000' amsl. Some day I'll have a cabin on this lot. And make moonshine. And stuff. :D

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Ratdog68, great pics of the Pacific N.W. thanks for those ...it cooled me off some here in the Desert.
    Seems either the Sharp shock or crack of the 777 ffg may have made, but more of a possible hairline crack in the T/C's stock was there but not apparent...bad luck all around on it for ya. But repairable or replacable. I used 777 ffg once in an 1860 Pietta 28gr knocked my wedge out and sheared off the lug locating pins on the third shot.
    I still have a half a bottle of it. :O)
    I use Black Powder and probly always will ... that's the stuff that doesn't change without you changin' the amount.
    I shoot a constant 60gr of ffg Goex or KIK Black Powder in a Miroku Tennessee Poorboy.50, a Mowrey.50, and a 1863 Remington .58 Zouave...
     
  19. higene

    higene Member

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    .45 Pedersoli

    As I mentioned on another post, a .45 has followed me home. The rifle is very similar to a Traditions Crockett (barrel mics .890 across the flats at the muzzle). A Pedersoli book that came with my Howdah lists 38 grains as a max load.

    :scrutiny:

    What loads do others shoot in a .45 Pedersoli?

    Higene

    PS Here are some more pix from the Pacific Northwest (picture taken from my back porch).
     

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  20. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    mykeal... hadn't had much coffee yet this morning... probably hit the wrong button on my phone's calculator when I was eyeballin' the load numbers. Thanks for settin' me straight on it... makes me feel even better than I was keeping within the specs for the load.

    arcticap... probably was just a flaw in the stock, plus it's a very light gun/stock. I don't know for certain, but suspect I just shot the first rounds ever through it when it broke. It's a real purdy little deer/yote rifle.

    BCRider... appreciate the input on the epoxy application. I'll probably go that route. Since it's got a fairly long crack on both sides... I found I can open the crack a bit by hand. I'll probably put the butt into a wood vice and open it manually after heating it and let the schmooie run on down into the length of the cracks. Definately will use the slow set stuff when I work on the repair. No reason NOT to try... got nothing to lose by doing so... and, I have three other rifles to use in the mean time, so, no rush in having it repaired with shortcuts either.

    LOL... yeah.... the flatlanders don't seem to realize that we start at sea level and within 55 miles we're traversing the passes at about 5,000 feet with the mountains still above us. Those Colorado boys also forget that they're starting at 5,000+ elevation for their "tall" mountains.

    Ginormous... sorry my friend... them's "foothills" 'round these parts... mere geological speed bumps, so to speak. :D But... them's' purdy ones none the less !!

    Smokin' Gun.... yeah... lately, if it weren't fer bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck with the holy black toys. I plan on learning how to use this 777 stuff. I like it... especially the clean up ease it offers. I suspect the stock was already flawed, or worse, and just wasn't obvious to see before. C'est la vie.

    Bottom line... I had a ball getting out and finally getting a chance to shoot the first two BP toys I acquired. I ain't givin' up this easy though. I've got two Hawkens, a Renegade, two 1858's, an 1810 Wm Parker pistol, and a Walker yet to put through their paces.

    Thanks guys... appreciate the input/replies. Hope the pix were entertaining enough to motivate another to get out and do some plinkin' too.

    I'll dig up the link and post it of my next bow build. We cut some poles of Vine Maple and I'm now learning how to do up a self bow (longbow) from SCRATCH... strip the bark and start making sawdust and shavings. I think I'm gonna go light on this one and see about making it a 45# @ 28". It's already got some killer "natural" reflex to it.
     
  21. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    Hey, Higene? Where's "Yacolt" ? With as many miles as I've put on a bike in WA State... I'm surprised I can't place yer location.
     
  22. higene

    higene Member

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    Sunny Yacolt, Washington

    Yacolt is 25 miles north and east of the Portland airport, 12 miles north and east of Battleground. Exit 11 off of I-5, to Battleground, north at the Safeway on 503 and east 8 miles on Rock Creek Road along the East Fork of the Lewis river past Lucia Falls park. I am 400 yards past the Railroad Tracks. If you get to Molton Falls park you are 1 mile too far.

    :)
     
  23. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    I've been in the general area of you many times... but not to Yacolt. I passed your exit in the fall when I'm headed towards Trout Lake area to go elk hunting with my buddy.
     
  24. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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  25. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I have a .45 Pedersoli with a 1 in 48" twist & is about ~27" in length, and for 50 yard target shooting it prefers ~38 grains of Pyrodex P.
     
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