Pack heat folks... and be aware of your surroundings.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Deaf Smith, Aug 9, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,546
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    The "broken windows" policy. Try to clear every crime and punish the offenders for "minor" offenses before they escalate to doing serious crimes. If the minor punishment for minor crimes doesn't deter them, at least the repeat offender record can minimize the number of victims before they are eventually off the streets.

    We got burglarized many years ago, the police came out, gave me a slip of paper and a case number "for insurance purposes". When I pointed out a fat juicy fingerprint on the glass she shrugged her shoulders and left. If they at least lifted the print they'd have the perp's bad history when caught for something else so they couldn't play the "first time offense" plea. :(
     
  2. wally

    wally Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,546
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    Doesn't sound like you are disagreeing with me. According to the article the perp got caught about 10 minutes later, most likely because of the violence of the crime. Had it been just "911 he stole my wallet with $35 in it" instead, doubt it would have got the same response unless it was a very slow night.
     
    Berger.Fan222 and RPZ like this.
  3. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    4,948
    Location:
    Salem, AR
    Yes. All of that is true, but having the legal right to confront someone who just stole money from you doesn't insulate you from being beaten up by the thief. Sure, that's a crime, too, and the thief, now the assailant, will be prosecuted for that, but that would be cold comfort to me as I lay in a hospital bed recovering from the beating.

    So what? Yeah, whenever they can get the drugs the assailant, now the murderer, will be executed by the State of Texas. I'm sure it will totally make up for the fact the victim (in the scenario as you played it out, above) is lying in a leaky box having his remains devoured by worms.
     
    9MMare likes this.
  4. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    4,948
    Location:
    Salem, AR
    The hyperbole is almost laughable. If I remember correctly, it was Japan, not Germany that attacked Pearl Harbor. Germany honored their treaty obligations and declared war on the United States. From that moment, the defeat of Germany was inevitable. The only thing in doubt was who was going to get to Berlin first and what date that would be.

    Men don't let their testosterone level rule their behavior. When they do, the result is what is shown on the video.
     
    9MMare likes this.
  5. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    4,948
    Location:
    Salem, AR
    Well then, buy one less gun this year and use that money to support candidates who will get behind reintroduction of the code of Draco.
     
  6. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    4,948
    Location:
    Salem, AR
    A cynical response perhaps indicative of Houston, but certainly not reflective of the reality in every jurisdiction in the United States.
     
  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,135
    Location:
    Within the lightning of realization
    Sorry for your experience. Doesn't always work out that way.

    One time I responded to a break-in where nothing was known to have been taken, but I found a bloody spot on a window at the apparent point of entry. Nice finger print, in blood, on the inside of a double paned window, which made it hard to explain in some respects (unless, of course, you were cut while trying to remove pieces of a double paned window you'd just broken). I submitted the print lift and was on my way. Didn't hear anything from the burglary/property crime detectives, and forgot about it.

    A couple years later I was subpoenaed to court to testify about a print lift I'd taken. Yep, that one. The suspect, now identified because of the print lift, ended up being sent off to state prison for a few years. Pretty good return on the investment of a few minutes invested gathering a couple print lifts.
     
  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    yeh, but you have to find them and catch them and investigate the crimes prosecute them, within limited resources, and the police have to prioritize.
     
  9. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    Catch is... 'good behavior'. He can get out in 2 1/2 years if he gets the minimum sentence and he 'acts' rehabilitated. It is well known the get on the 'Jesus Train' till they reach the 'Commutation Station'. Then they get off the Jesus


    You should have read the rest of my post. I was explaining the law and why lethal force could have been applied. So here is the post..

    "Folks, the attacker first STOLE money right out of his hand. That is theft. When committed right in front of you here in Texas can legally confront them. It is a Class C misdemeanor EXCEPT when force is used to take the money (he snatched it from his hand and then when not allowed to leave he physically attacked him) then it becomes strong armed robbery, a felony. If the thief had killed him it would then have been capital murder (murder in commission of a felony.)

    In actually, the Lufkin police charged him, Andrea Franks-Vanzandt, with aggravated robbery. They considered his hands and feet deadly weapons. Why? The severity of the beating (to me he almost killed him!)

    But as the attack grew in force, and with the 'Stand Your Ground' law in Texas, the victim could have shot him.

    But as in the title of this thread, keep your eyes pealed and aware of what is going on. And yes get some H2H skills just in case you have to stop them from BEATING YOU TO DEATH."

    Deaf
     
    RPZ likes this.
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    Not so sure. The physical act of taking something forcibly from someone else is probably robbery.

    Apparently not.

    But the victim's evidence would have to prevent the state or a plaintiff from proving that that would have been immediately necessary.

    And that law simply relieves from the astor the burden of producing evident to the effect that he could not have retreated in perfect safety. It does not give a defender the authority to say "bring it on" or to act accordingly
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  11. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    Apparently so. News articles say...

    “Instead, he was met a barrage of punches, kicks, and stomps that left him lying on the floor, in and out of consciousness”. I.E. head trauma. Archer was flown to Memorial Hermann Hospital in Houston with serious injuries to his head, face, and eyes.

    They don't fly you to a hospital hundreds of miles from Lufkin just for a bandaid.

    Oh, and NO WORDS WERE EXCHANGED according to the news reports. And the Lufkin PD didn't charge him with hitting him BACK... which he did in the video.

    Deaf
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  12. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    8,921
    Location:
    on Puget Sound
    Never thought I'd see this said on this forum: "I'm fairly comfortable blaming the victim."

    While I've always believed that Clint Eastwood (as "Dirty Harry") got it right with that great line, "A man's gotta know his limitations," for me, it was a tad bit refreshing to see someone fight back, even though I'm pretty sure he knew he was gonna get his ass whipped.

    But bullies continue to be bullies because they know people these days rarely fight back.

    Lots of folks on this forum who seemingly like to believe in slogans such as "Better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees" yet when the real world intrudes, it's gosh, that poor fool, what was he thinking? No, there's no real man code left.

    Frankly, I'd like to believe that a least a few criminals would think twice about committing some wrong-doing if they'd encountered some previous would-be victims who'd actually fought back.
     
  13. a_canadian

    a_canadian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
    153
    It's a bit of a tricky thing trying to spell out what I meant by that. I guess sort of along the lines of blaming his decision making, not his intention. The victim's intention seems laudable. I respect, in theory, that he made some effort to 'say no' physically, to resist being victimized. But what I find blameful is his failure to apprehend the depth of the potential consequences, combined with his almost comical lack of hand to hand skills. Points for trying... But more points deducted for almost getting himself killed in a feeble gesture which utterly failed to prove his manliness or whatever the hell he was trying to prove.

    I am genuinely sorry if this offends anyone, but his choice to challenge his attacker followed by a demonstration of complete unpreparedness is just bad decision making. He could easily have cost his child a father. Over a few bucks and his pride. Demanding that someone stand up and challenge the crook scum in this case makes no sense to me. He was in no way capable of backing up his attitude with skills. Had he at least a baseball bat and the will to swing it things would likely have been different. But his body language says that he wasn't emotionally available for a real fight. He seems almost daydreaming. Or watching things unfold on TV. That sort of passivity put together with a direct, if feeble, challenge to the robber's physical superiority and obvious anger, is a recipe for disaster. Expecting weaker, uncommitted defenders to suck it up and take one for the team in terms of sending a message to criminals asks too high a price.

    Maybe if there's a next time he'll have a weapon. Or do some evening classes in Krav Maga and be at least a bit more aware of his surroundings. I'm sure he's learning something from this. But part of that lesson should be, at least in my opinion, a bit of humility in terms of his understanding of when it's a good idea to just step out of the way and live another day. We get one life. Is that worth losing in such a case? That's for each of us to decide.

    If I were in his position I'd be very unlikely to be fondling my wallet in a close quarters situation like that. I get my wallet out only after scanning my surroundings, always have since I was a teen. Just normal paranoia it seems to me, as I've long been aware there are those who will try to take what we value. I don't dangle my smartphone around potential thieves either. Temptation can be a powerful thing for the unintelligent and desperate among us. Extending my imagined participation in this victim's place, allowing that I'd already been so stupid as to hold my money so temptingly in front of him, I'd likely have made a quick assessment and decision either to step back out of the way of the one exit, or committing to sweeping the creep's legs out from under him one way or another. A sharp kick to the top of his locked knee with good follow-through would have ended the fight before it began, leaving me to wait with the clerks for police to arrive.

    I've had to respond to physical attacks only a few times as an adult. The worst I've suffered was s bloody nose due to inadequate blocking skills. A couple of times I had to temporarily disable the attackers, while a couple of others I was able to de-escalate situations verbally, one of these involving a very angry drunk with a knife. One needs to be flexible and adaptable to get through these things. And a bit lucky I suppose. In the case being discussed, the body language seems clear from the start in telling of a lot of aggression. In the face of that sort of evidence there are serious decisions to be made, very quickly. Failing to be prepared for such decisions tends to leave the intended victim leaning rather too heavily on luck.
     
  14. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    Perhaps too much discussion is focusing on what happens after the $35 is snatched from the victim's hand.

    My practice is to scan pretty thoroughly for thugs when rolling into a gas station. If things look dicey, I'm on my way to another gas station without ever leaving the car, getting boxed in, or coming to a complete stop if I can avoid it. There's one gas station I pass often that I avoid stopping at because it often has creepy folks loitering about. Sure, the gas costs more down the road, but it's a better neighborhood and does not have the creepy loiterers.

    When I gotta go inside to pay, my practice is to scan the room for thugs as soon as I enter the room and turn and walk out if anything seems dicey. Escape and evade before you're even sure there will be trouble, just cause it looks like it's an identified risk.

    Finally, don't flash cash until you're at the counter with no one in front of you and you've turned to check your six. Be quick and get it out of your hands and into the clerk's hands. Don't be fumbling around with your wallet. I often take the money from my wallet to a front pocket while still in a locked car, having checked that no one is looking or uncomfortably close to my vehicle.

    Becoming more of a fan of pay-at-the-pump and bringing my own drinks and snacks from home.
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    hat's from a news article. I sounds bad.

    I do not think the a layman can responsibly conclude from that that the attack "almost killed him".

    What would have justified such charges?

    Yep.
     
  16. TN Outlaw

    TN Outlaw Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2017
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    SouthWest TN
    I hate he couldn't fight his way through a wet paper sack but im glad he at least stood up to the guy.

    I dont care too much for "manly men" competitions but i do wholeheartedly believe in standing up for yourself. Doing so when chances of success are slim, some call it stupid, i call it courageous.

    Seen alot of people that had "no chance" whoopuhell outa the other guy. Theres no such thing as no chance in a fight. Small chance, but not none. If he felt his things we're worth risking his health over, thats his decision. Theres a pretty high likelihood of being hurt or killed in a car crash but we decide the risk is worth it mult times everyday and its not.

    I totally understand the thought of no possession is worth losing your life over and i respect that notion but i also believe in if your gonna take my stuff from me, your gonna have to TAKE my stuff from me.

    I comment in peace. Dont call me dumb for my choice and i wont call you a coward for yours :evil:
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    Would you be "glad" if he had been killed or maimed?
     
  18. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,862
    Location:
    Southwestern IL-ANNOY
    This is why I prefer to pay "at the pump". If I have to go inside, I look around before approaching the clerks and don't remove my wallet until I'm at the counter. As most of my gas purchases are somewhere in the St. Louis metro area, I try to keep my head on a swivel.
    There is a Chinese carry-out that I like to go to but it is right across the street from a large complex of 2-3 story apartments. After I order, I stand with my back to the wall where I can watch the counter AND the front door. Haven't had a problem - yet. My biggest concern there is going in during the winter. If I go during the winter, it is already dark as I don't usually get there before 5 p.m.
     
  19. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    I've shown that video to a dozen people. Every one felt the man was being beaten to death and it almost kill him.

    Plus my wife, who has been an ER nurse, Trauma 1 nurse, ICU nurse, head of ICU, and Director of Cardiovascular nursing (and hence not a 'layman'), saw the video and she felt it 'almost killed him'.

    Kicks to the head are quite lethal. Hence the charge of 'aggravated assault' (that is, just in case you don't know, means he used a weapon, I.E. his shod foot.) Concussions can cause strokes and the law generally considers kicks with shod (that is shoes... just in case you don't know, I mean being a layman and such) foot to be deadly weapons.

    Deaf
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    Not necessarily. The crime includes "intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causing serious bodily injury to another person". That would not require the use of a weapon--which the assailant in this case did not have.

    In any event, the charges against the assailant have nothing to do with justification, which would be based on the defender's reasonable belief and upon what he knew at the time.

    "Almost killed him"? No one could determine that from a video.

    The perp obviously did not try to kill him. He walked out after delivering a serious beating.

    Would deadly force have been justified after the beating was under way? I would think so.

    But the video shows that the victim had failed to avail himself of opportunities to avoid the beating in the first place.

    Dumb.

    And that is the lesson to be learned here.
     
  21. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    8,921
    Location:
    on Puget Sound
    Wow. Simply wow. Calling the victim dumb? That is not what the video depicts -- there's the real possibility that this violent offender would have chosen to perpetrate a merciless beat-down of the victim even had he complied anyway. Some folks simply take pleasure in inflicting pain on others, and the way the attacker carried out the beating indicates to me that he knew he could have ceased his actions after the first few blows, gotten away with his take, but the fact that he didn't, reflects that he is one who enjoys preying on weaker subjects.

    The lesson to be learned here is, given a particular situation, are you going to be able to live with yourself afterward and the decision(s) you make/made no matter the outcome?

    The "victim" stood up against a violent criminal. That he did not have the skills (and certainly not the foreknowledge of his assailant's abilities) yet still attempted to stop the attacker does not make him "dumb." Perhaps he lives on a fixed income, and that money remaining in his wallet 'til the next payday is what's going to feed his family for the remainder of the week. Perhaps he understood that at some point in one's life, one has to take a stand against bullies and bad guys.

    Given some of the comments in this thread, it's no wonder that so many miscreants out there feel they have free reign to mug senior citizens, spout foul gutter language in public places around women and children, engage daily in road rage on our public streets and highways with impunity, commit all manner of crimes, misdemeanors and public indecencies without having to worry about consequences, and finally, live secure in the knowledge that our society has devolved into a nation of cowards and that they, themselves, will never be held accountable for their actions.
     
  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    The victim deliberately tried to to impede the departure of a felon who was on his way out, and he did not have the ability to succeed.

    That resulted in his being on the receiving end of what is known among violent people as a "beat down".

    Not the most brilliant move.....
     
  23. Creature

    Creature Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,765
    Location:
    Virginia Beach
    Moral of the story: don't flash your cash.
     
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,465
    That's one good lesson here.

    Another is to not try to impede the departure of a felon without knowing what you are doing.

    And another is to avoid putting one's hands on someone, regardless of how justified that may seem. Yeah, you have the right to use force to..., but....

    None of those actions would have begun to justify the vicious attack that occurred.

    Yet each of them showed that the victim lacked any real understanding of how and why bad people do bad things, and about how to avoid either being their victim or a defendant in court.

    And some of the comments here seem to indicate that an armed response while such a response was still in the realm of reasonable possibility might have been advisable. Think again.

    I strongly suggest reading this:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LIBWADA/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

    "In the Name of Self Defense: What It Costs. When It’s Worth It. will challenge what you think you know about self defense. It's an in-depth exploration of what is and what is not self-defense. Both in the streets and in the eyes of our judicial system—and where most people go wrong. Using the information contained in this book could mean the difference between you laying in a parking lot, legitimate self-defense or prison!

    "This book presents information unlike any you've seen before, focusing not only on the aftermath of an incident, but on what commonly leads to violence and your actions before, during, and after. Learn about the limitations of real self defense, how to accurately assess a situation and concisely “articulate” the timeline of events to officers and legal professionals in a manner that reduces the chances of a misunderstanding . . . and a subsequent prison sentence.

    "Whether you want to add to the knowledge you acquired as a beginner in a self-defense class or you’re an instructor looking to further your own knowledge or a professional whose job requirements place you in potentially violent situations with dissatisfied clients or customers . . . it doesn’t matter! In the Name of Self Defense is a must-read for everybody! If you're lucky, you will never need the information contained within these pages, but if you ever require it what you learn from this volume will be vital."​
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    9MMare likes this.
  25. Creature

    Creature Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,765
    Location:
    Virginia Beach
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice