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Pack heat folks... and be aware of your surroundings.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Deaf Smith, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    KB, are you stuck on stupid? We all know this guy used his shod foot to stomp on his head.

    Geeze man.

    Deaf
     
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    I think you completely missed my point.

    If someone is kicking someone else and causing injury, the fact that he is wearing shoes does not make the crime one involving the unlawful use of a weapon. But it is a crime of violence, nevertheless.
     
  3. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

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    In Massachusetts kicking someone while wearing shoes,sneakers not included, is considered a weapon therefore a Felony.it's called A&B with a shod foot. I would not be surprised if some other States would have a similar law.
     
  4. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Most do in some form. See a 'deadly weapon' is virtually anything that can kill or cause serious injury. It's the INTENT that makes it a deadly weapon, not some definition plucked out of script. Thus, as John Wick demonstrated, even a pencil is a deadly weapon.

    Deaf
     
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    To illustrate that point, a person recently threw an old television off a balcony in Kansas City, MO and hit someone below. Charges included the unlawful use of a weapon.

    I assume he intended to hit her.

    In some states, what a miscreant used in an attack on another person could make a signifiant difference in terms of the severity of charges.

    I don't think it would matter in Texas. One need tot have uses any kind of an implement at all to commit aggravated assault, if one "intentionally, knowingly or recklessly" caused or attempted to cause "serious bodily injury to another person".

    Of course, there may be some technicality of which I am not aware.
     
  6. Mousegun

    Mousegun Member

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    Wonder how it would play out if one of us was in that store and only picked up on the beating when the victim was down, getting plummeted, with fear he was going to be killed and we took it on ourselves to pop the "suspect" with the idea of saving the victim's life?

    Then the video comes out and shows to show he engaged.
     
  7. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    I'll just say this video has been given to several top trainers by me (yes I have access to the original surveillance video), and they have said they would have shot him (the attacker) either as first party or as a third party. And the shooter would have been given a medal.

    Most of what I see posted here is basically navel gazing as far as cries of law suits and criminal charges. Pitiful. No DA in Texas, after seeing the vid, would have charged them. And any lawsuit would be rejected.

    Deaf
     
  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    There you go again.
     
  9. TN Outlaw

    TN Outlaw Member

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    "IF" , dont really care bout if. We can play the if game all day. What "if" one hit knocked out the crook and made him decide from that point foward its easier to work for a living then maybe getting hurt everytime he tryed to steal from somebody. Id be "glad" to avoid if scenerios.

    I didnt argue against your point or say i was right and you were wrong. I only stated my opinion and respected yours.

    Regardless of if the odds are stacked against you, wether in school, at work, on the street, or in prison, or anywhere if you let somebody run over you and take from you without doing anything about it 2 things happen.

    1-Others will run over you till you stop them.
    2-The aggressor will not learn their lesson and others will be done the same way as you.

    Its your biz how you feel about that and how you would react and im fine with staying safe for your and your family's sake. Its probably the "smart move", but i dont always claim to do the right thing. I just say what i would do and in this case i would try to shove that dudes nose out the back of his head and i dont care if its $5, its my $5.

    That's just me.
     
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    I don't know how much thought you want to put into it, but it would be prudent to gain your understanding of reality before the fact, rather than contemplate about it afterward if you are still able to do so.

    This is an eyeopener. It will take more than one sitting, and probably more than one reading.

    It would be safe to predict that it you do read it and think about it, you would most probably think differently.

    https://www.amazon.com/Name-Self-Defense-What-costs-worth-ebook/dp/B00LIBWADA
     
  11. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    But we do understand the reality of the situation.. IN TEXAS. No DA in Texas, after seeing the video posted, would have charged anyone who came to the aid of the main being beaten. And any lawsuit would be rejected.

    Deaf
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    I think that may be wishful thinking based on poorly supported conjecture. "No" and "any" do not reflect sound risk assessment, anywhere.

    THAT is reality.

    But it was not my point--at all. Far from it.

    My point was that not letting "somebody run over you and take from you without doing annoying about it" could get you killed or maimed.

    There are bad people out there, and none of us are Superman.

    It seems as if you, too, could benefit from MacYoung's book.
     
  13. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Really, do you think you needed to make the point that fighting back could get you killed or maimed, on this forum?

    Yes, there are bad people out there, and none of us are Superman.

    Yet, what you are saying is so close to what the liberal, left-leaning anti-gun crowd has been spewing for years: "Comply, cooperate, don't ever fight back, don't make it worse, give the criminal your stuff/hard-earned money, and hopefully he will go away without harming you."
     
  14. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Names of these top trainers? You brought it up if you want to continue here, you're going to have to name your sources. I want to know what top trainers are saying the shooter should get a medal. I'm sure the rest of the community does too. Especially since no gun was involved here and there was no shooter to pin a medal on. How was the victim (the first person the unnamed top trainer) who was unarmed supposed to shoot his assailant? Third person is immaterial because to our knowledge there was no one armed present. We don't use anonymous sources to prevail in a discussion here.

    We can get into hypothetical discussions of what might have been but that's simply a waste of good electrons. What actually happened was a man who was unaware of his surroundings had $35 snatched from his hands while waiting in line to pay for his fuel in a convenience store. He was unarmed and had no hand to hand skills and he chose to attempt to physically restrain the man who robbed him, who was bigger, younger, stronger and more skilled from leaving the store with his $35. He lost the fight with the first blow the robber, now assailant struck.

    Those are the facts and all of the if onlys in this thread aren't going to change those facts.


    That's not what he is saying at all. What he is saying is don't get into a situation you can't handle. Picking a fight with someone younger, bigger and in better shape then you are is simply stupid. The hapless victim here was unarmed and unskilled and was nearly killed. Mas Ayoob and others advocate carrying a throwaway wallet for situations like this. I suppose the thought of that personally offends those people who haven't been in a real fight since the 5th grade and go through life thinking the world is some kind of John Wayne movie where simply living by the "code" is all it takes. Well Old Dog, in this case living by "the code" almost caused this poor man his life. Kind of reminds me of the shootout in Shane where Jack Palance cuts down Elisha Cook Jr.


    Not exactly the same situation, but similar enough to make my point. You need to take the emotion out of this and look at it coldly and dispassionately.

    In this situation it's quite clear from the video that the assailant was on his way out the door when the victim chose to engage. Choosing to engage an attacker who is bigger, younger and stronger then you are, when you are unarmed and unskilled isn't brave, it's stupid!!!

    Sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor. The victim here is lucky to be alive. I suppose most of you think that George Custer made the correct tactical decision at the Little Bighorn.

    Without a good less lethal option, a firearm or martial arts skills, the victim made a stupid decision to engage and he he paid a price for it and the lesson here is that brave but stupid is still stupid.
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    That is indeed a lot of what I'm saying.

    But there is something more. MacYoung's book is a long read, but it is worth reading. It takes us into the various realms of how different violent people think, what is important to them, and how they might react, at the moment at a later time not of your choosing, in response to various stimuli.

    People whose ethos differ from the norm have very different value systems, and they way the may react to being insulted, challenged, pushed, blocked, scowled at, etc. can be very unpleasant indeed.

    The ol' mantra that one must "do something" does not work very well at all in many of the worst circles. MacYoung explains that in quite some detail in the book.

    MacYoung's compressive "kitchen" is free, and is open for tasting at your leisure. It is nononsenseselfdefense.com

    Here is a good appetizer to what your appetite:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/preattack.html

    Another really good source of information on this subject is William Aprill, a New Orleans LEO, criminologist, and sociologist.

    So, it's not just a matter of "don't get into a situation that you can't handle", though that would be a very good credo to live by.; it's also matter of not getting into situations that involve contentions with persons whom t you do not understand, such as the monkey dance.

    Want to skip the study and default to a very simple roadmap? It's ADEE: avoid. deescalate/disengage, escape, evade.

    That not only reduces the serious physical risk in a confrontation, the attempt will also serve, in the event that it should fail, as substantiation of immediate necessity, which is fundamental to a successful defense of justification.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 6:59 PM
  16. JB357MAG

    JB357MAG Member

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    That was disturbing and scary to watch.

    I would have probably backed off in shock at first and then got real
    pissed off.

    I cant say what would happen then.

    After seeing this, I hope I would call 911.

    Jimmy
     
  17. a_canadian

    a_canadian Member

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    In the example under discussion, the offense in the eyes of the assailant was committed when his victim showed the audacity to stand his ground, while plainly being an inferior physical specimen. The attacker most likely felt that his manhood was being challenged by a weaker man, and found this insulting and unforgivable. I'm not remotely justifying his actions nor his attitude, only saying what most likely went on in his tiny brain.

    I once had to face a threatened knife attack for even less reason. I was enjoying a burger and a beer in a very crowded pub after doing a small contract at a store, when a guy a couple of tables over started yelling abusively at the woman next to him. I glanced up to see if the situation merited further attention, ie was she in danger. They seemed to know each other, and the conversation calmed a bit, so I went back to eating. Soon after he was swearing at her again, even held up a hand as though to threaten her. This time he locked eyes with me and scowled, hard, daring me to keep looking at him. I smiled and went back to my meal. About twenty minutes later I left the place, not thinking about it. He was outside waiting, knife in hand, and said "You're gonna f****n' die now!" I glanced down at my tool bag to see where the hammer was then turned my attention to negotiations with this idiot. I explained as he advanced slowly across the very wide sidewalk that my life meant nothing to him, but there were at least a dozen witnesses sitting at the window behind me and his own life, or at least a few years of it, would be spent in prison if he took mine. Had to press the point twice to get through the fog of his rage, but he calmed a bit and backed up, throwing the knife into his open car window. It was one of those fist knife things, the stabby punchy variety. Very shiny. I had calculated that I could get to my hammer in time to hit him first if he got closer than two steps away. He got within three steps, and I was already easing my right hand across towards the hammer when he backed off. His arm was still in his car window when I turned and walked a short distance, watching him, then ran like hell. No need to play hero in case he changed his mind.

    If I'd had a gun, and if I were in a place where a gun was a legal tool to carry, I'd have been teaching for that just the same. He'd made a direct verbal threat on my life, and was following up with a physical threat. No judge nor jury would convict me with all those witnesses. But I'm glad I didn't have to fight for my life, as words were enough, and maybe he did a bit of thinking about his anger issues and their potential consequences. Or who knows, maybe he's dead or in prison now.

    My point in adding this is that one has to weigh the situation. Petty robbery, even by force such as the video shows, is not a good reason for anyone to die. Sure, the thief might die another day when he pushes the wrong guy too far, or he might kill another day when his obvious anger problem escalates even further. (A guy who used to bully me in elementary school was in prison for manslaughter before his mid-20's, no surprise there.) But this victim in our video example choosing to be a victim of a beating, trading that for just being a robbery victim, that's just dumb. We must be smarter than the criminals, use intelligence and whatever skills we possess to out-maneuver them whenever possible. If it comes to harming or even killing them, so be it, but we have to know our limitations. If it becomes a fist fight to the death, well, go berserker for all you're worth! It may be your last fight, so make it good. Half-heartedly stepping in the way obviously doesn't accomplish anything besides making the guy mad. Same as poor Cookie up against Jack Palance's terrifying gunslinger - he had no chance, so what did he price by going for his gun? Did his death reduce the community's fear at all? Nope. Was he a hero? Not really. Just a dead fool. Now had he chosen to do what most killers did in that thoroughly romanticized time, he'd have waited in a dark corner and shot the gunslinger in the back. That would have been justified considering the criminal's history. But he decided to use his thoroughly inadequate skill level against an Olympic level bad guy. Again, just dumb. But it makes for a good movie plot element. Inspires the actual hero a little. Pretty sad for Cookie's family and friends though.
     
  18. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Ah, well, another moderator putting words in the (virtual) mouths of previous posters. I am looking at this situation coldly and dispassionately. The "victim" in the video is clearly a grown man, who made a choice. Was it the correct one, ultimately, under the circumstances? Only he will be able to make that call. He is, after the all, the one who's gonna live with the consequences of his decision. NOT you.

    By the way, this poster has actually been in more (sadly) than a few fights since the 5th grade (occupational hazard).

    And I love the movie "Shane." One of my all time favorites.
     
    TN Outlaw likes this.
  19. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The purpose of the strategies tactics and training forum is to further others knowledge through discussion. And when others read emotional posts encouraging resistance when resistance might not be the best course of action they may well face the consequences of his poor decision.

    No one is advocating never fighting back. All that is being suggested is that if you are unprepared for a situation it's most often best to avoid it.

    You're still dead when you die with your boots on. It's 2017 and no one is going to write songs praising your bravery when you are killed trying to foil the escape of the strong armed robber who grabbed your $35 out of your hand.

    There are plenty of instances where people are killed or injured after complying with a robber. But in most cases they don't want to fight, they just want to get away.

    It's clear from the video that this strong armed robber just wanted to get away.
     
  20. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Bull. This assailant took pleasure in administering this beating, which lasted well past the point of resistance from the victim.
     
  21. a_canadian

    a_canadian Member

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    Like I was saying above. The crook clearly had a chip on his shoulder, triggered by the victim's token resistance. One of the most critical skills in this life is learning to read people. Everything about the crook's body language was saying 'don't mess with me, I dare you to mess with me.' I've seen bunches of guys with this sort of attitude for decades, in all sorts of contexts, and the message is more or less the same whatever the social circle; if you're going to mess with a guy posing with that sort of attitude, you had better bring your best game. Applies in arguments of all sorts. Falter, and a guy who has that much of his ego invested in strong-arming you is going to roll right over you, whether he's right or wrong. It's the nature of bullying. Step out of the way if you don't feel confident you can win, and learn more skills so you can win another day.
     
  22. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    He was walking towards the door when your hero stepped in front and blocked his way. If the victim had not done that there would have been no further confrontation.

    The criminal actor here took pleasure in administering the beating after the victim made his completely ineffective counter punch.

    That was what angered him to the point of nearly killing the victim.
     
  23. paulsj

    paulsj Member

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    If the victI
    Standing up for what is rig
    Thank you for proving to me that carrying a gun is worth the trouble and could save my life.
     
  24. TN Outlaw

    TN Outlaw Member

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    Ok, 1st of all, i have not advocated that anyone stand their ground against a robber. I havent said thats even the correct thing to do under those circumstances. I have stated what im almost certain i would do.

    Since then ive been asked if i would be "glad" if this victim wouldve been killed(who asks a person that?) and have read my decision as being compared to Shane or Custer "trying to be a hero" if i had decided to stand up for my....MY...stuff that ive worked my butt off for to keep some lazy azz sneak theif from walking away with it and running me over like he knows im going to just let him do it. Well, im not. Sorry, but just be thankful its 2017 and you dont have to "write song of my bravery"

    The truth is you never know what tools the opposition really has in their bag. So what is all of this talk of self defense? You may be the bigger, stronger, and younger guy but the little guy may be Anderson Sylva or he may have a gun or knife you didnt see. The man pointing a gun at innocents that you have the drop on, may have 6 guys you dont even see with the drop on you. If you dont ever take any tactical chances then there wouldn't ever be a such thing as self defense because this isnt Shane. Its not a movie and things aren't scripted. You never know what will happen next so there would never be a time you would defend yourself, others, or your property by that merit.

    So IF the bad guy was smaller and weaker and you (somehow) knew you could handle him, then it would be ok? Little guys alot of the time can throw hands, well. Also, even if you control the smaller weaker guy and his buddy walks through the door and puts a bullet in your head, well it dont matter anyway. If you defend yourself, your property, or another person be it family or a stranger or if you defend your home, your ALWAYS taking a chance of getting injured or killed and unless your the "all knowing", you really dont know what your up against. You only know what you see. So should we never stand up to bad guys?

    The beauty of all of this is we are all free to make our own choice. Mine wont always be the correct choice but it will always be mine. IMHO, the victims poor decision was not being better prepared. Training, force multipliers, and full awareness. Thats the poor decision, not the fact he stood his ground. I am better prepared and it more than likely wouldve ended differently for me but there are no guarantees. Its a chance i personally wouldve taken.
     
  25. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

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    Perhaps you do not understand our issues because you are Canadian. My country is deeply divided now with groups ready to confront and attack each other. What is see here is deeply disturbing and much much more than a typical guy with macho attitude. There is tremendous amount of hate behind those punches.
     

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