Pediatrician nonsense

[LJWebster1]

So my wife takes my 8 year old son to the doctor for his annual checkup, and when they get done, the doctor asks my son if there are any guns in the house. My son of course says yes, given that there are a bunch, and two of them are his. The doctor asks if he ever touches them, and my son says, yeah, of course. The doctor gets this look on his face, and my son follows up with, "but only when my dad is there." The doctor then looks at my wife and says, "even if you teach him abouth them, he's still going to play with them." I told my wife its a darn good thing I didn't take him to this appointment, or that doctor would have gotten an earful. I basically would have asked him why he didn't ask my son if there was a pool in the back yard. When he looked at me puzzled, I'd have told him that according to the National Safety Council, in 2003 there wre 86 deaths of children 0 to 14 from firearms. During the same period, there were 943 drownings. Of course, there were also 2,591 deaths from motor-vehicles. I would have attempted to "educate" this buffoon. And I used to like him too.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Sometimes the people you thought you knew & liked turn out to be anti-gun. I used to like John Wayne, Paul Newman, Robert Redford, etc until I found out they all hate guns :banghead: .

 

[cambeul41]

Your opportunity to eduate is not gone

A polite, well written letter could make your point better than words spoken in the heat of the moment.

I have a constantly edited computer file of essays, articles, and Oleg's posters that I copy to CDs to present to whomever I think might actually be interested in understanding our point of view.

 

[hso]

"even if you teach him abouth them, he's still going to play with them."

This is patently untrue if we've done our job as parents. It's also illogical considering that children don't grab the keys, hop in the car and take off in it even though we teach them about them.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I do not think this makes him anti-gun. He is just pointing out a fact. Children will play with them if given the oppotunity no matter how well you teach them. Some parents belive that their children will do as told if they tell them the consequences but we have to remember that young children do not have the cognitive and reasoning abilities that we as adults have and they are prone to do things they know they should not without even knowing why they did it. Any parent can tell you that. I think the fact that the gun death rate of children is so low is not because parents trust the kids to do the right thing when they are not there but because the vast majority are responsible gun owners that secure their firearms when children are around them. I think his point should have been that they should always be locked up when not being actively used and supervised. I doubt you could find a parent on here that would say it is okay to leave unlocked and loaded weapons out where a small child can get to them. Did he suggest removing the guns from the home or just that you take very necessary precautions?

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Sometimes the people you thought you knew & liked turn out to be anti-gun. I used to like John Wayne, Paul Newman, Robert Redford, etc until I found out they all hate guns
---------------------------------------
John Wayne hated guns?
I had no idea. Where did you hear this?
If this is true, then what a hipocrit, the SOB made his living doing westerns, acting out shootouts.

 

[MS .45]

V4Vendetta,
I too would like to know about John Wayne's anti- gun stance. I have never heard it before. Got any quotes or anything? May have to change my tag line.

 

[MechAg94]

I think it is possible to keep kids from "playing" with them. If you are positive and allow controlled/supervised access frequently, that is a good start. Making them some sort of taboo tool that they can never see or touch is the best way to insure that they will try to get at them. Also, the former ensures they have some gun safety instruction in the case they may break the rules.

I say this because that is basically what my Dad did. My brother and I knew where loaded guns were, but we also knew what they can do. My Dad also insisted my brother and I not point toy guns at people as well.

 

[f4t9r]

What !!! John Wayne hates guns. You just ruined my day

 

[progunner1957]

My wife and I do not have children - but if we did, I would teach them that the guns in our home is not anyone's business and that if they are ever asked about guns at home, to answer, "Talk to my Dad."

My view about such intrusive and inapproperiate questions is that said questions do not deserve or receive an accurate answer.

 

[Sgt.Slappy]

PP, do you have any kids?

Are you familiar with the Eddie Eagle program?

You say:
"I think the fact that the gun death rate of children is so low is not because parents trust the kids to do the right thing when they are not there but because the vast majority are responsible gun owners that secure their firearms when children are around them."

The Eddie Eagle program, aimed at children aged pre-K through 3rd grade states their mission thusly:

"The purpose of the Eddie Eagle Program isn't to teach whether guns are good or bad, but rather to promote the protection and safety of children. The program makes no value judgments about firearms, and no firearms are ever used in the program. Like swimming pools, electrical outlets, matchbooks and household poison, they're treated simply as a fact of everyday life. With firearms found in about half of all American households, it's a stance that makes sense."

They contibute to gun-proofing the child (an effective strategy), not child-proofing the gun (a losing battle IMHO).

What do you think about this program?

 

[Polishrifleman]

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=1156919

Here is another thread on the subject.

I wonder how they really ask the question. Boys = Guns it could be legos, tinker toys, cap, airsoft, paintball, rubber band, whatever. I have a 5 and 3 yr. old that love going after the bad guys, the thing I am most upset about is that they probably won't play Cowboys and Indians because of TV today it's just cops and robbers. Goodbye to the six shooter.

 

[JesseJames]

Um, don't mean to burst some bubbles here guys but when I was in the Army; when you are "John Wayne-ing" something, you are doing something wrong that will potentially get you killed or a team member killed.
A big no no.
I also heard that John Wayne was on a USO tour in the Pacific and when he walked on stage in full movie cowboy regalia and greeted the weary GI's, he was booed off the stage.
Face it, the guy was ALL image.
As for the pediatrician, grab his stethoscope and screech into it like howler monkey.

 

[mainmech48]

This is another example of the antis attempting to change the whole paradigm of firearms ownership into a "public health" issue. Easier to generate disaffection with the idea that way while bypassing the necessity for rational argument in the process.

IMO, it's none of the physician's business, and he/she should be required to both explain exactly why he asked and apologize for the implications inherent in his comments to your wife.

If you aren't satisfied with his response, change doctors.

If you should receive any subsequent attention from LEA or child welfare entities as a result of this - SUE HIS PRACTICE INTO CHAPTER 7! Betcha you can find a real humdinger of a "pet shark" litigator who'll do it on contigency.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Sgt.Slappy, my educational background is in psychology. My masters is in this field and I worked with at risk youth as a social worker. I base my statements on this experience. Children of certain ages are unable to comprehend negative effects of their action to a degree necessary for trust with a firearm in an unsupervised arena. If any program that suggested otherwise I would seriously question their credentials and qualifications. I doubt it would be certified by any psychiatric association unless they stessed that children "cannot" think like adults. I am all for allowing them supervised access but never unsupervised. There is no such thing as a "gun proof child". I would question the parenting skill of anyone that felt otherwise. The Eddie Eagle program actually feels the same way. One of their major mottos states that if a child is ever around a gun with out an adult they should "STOP! Don't Touch. Leave the Area. Tell an Adult." They also promote making sure guns in the home are locked up and inaccessable to children as per the NRA guidelines.

 

[Sgt.Slappy]

Seems to suggest to me, that my firearms should either be on my belt, over my shoulder, if not, and only then, in the safe.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Seems to suggest to me, that my firearms should either be on my belt, over my shoulder, if not, and only then, in the safe.

Bingo!
I am hoping this was the point the doctor was making. Not that the guns were bad but that the child should not be able to access them without close supervision. My partner's father and brother are both Doctors and are both gun lovers. In fact i am buying my father-n-law a Ruger for x-mas this year. I just have to decide which one.

 

[V4Vendetta]

I didn't mean that John Wayne was anti-gun. Paul Newman & Robert Redford are. John Wayne however, didn't believe that we stole this country from the Indians. I've read the treaty's at my local library & even a idiot like me can tell that they got shafted. Read Wayne's bio at www.imdb.com . When you get to the quotes part, read them all carefully. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[torpid]

(I posted this on another "nosey pediatrician" thread, but the info is appropriate to this one as well.)


Here's some nice sentiments from the American Academy of Pediatrics- "an organization of 60,000 pediatricians committed to the attainment of optimal physical, mental, and social health and well-being for all infants, children, adolescents, and young adults."

...The AAP affirms that the most effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries to children and adolescents is the absence of guns from homes and communities.
a) Firearm regulation, to include bans of handguns and assault weapons, is the most effective way to reduce firearm-related injuries.

b) Pediatricians and other child health care professionals are urged to inform parents about the dangers of guns in and outside the home. The AAP recommends that pediatricians incorporate questions about guns into their patient history taking and urge parents who possess guns to remove them, especially handguns, from the home. Loaded firearms and unlocked firearms and ammunition represent a serious danger to children and adolescents.

...Several legal reviews emphasize that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual's gun ownership. Two cases, Presser v Illinois and United States v Miller, have established the meaning of the Second Amendment.59,60 These and later federal court rulings have indicated that the "right" to bear arms is linked to the preservation of state militias and is not intended to provide for an individual's right to own a firearm. The federal government could ban whole categories of firearms, such as handguns and assault weapons.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) is proud to collaborate with PAX on the ASK Campaign and help promote its important message. The ASK Campaign (Asking Saves Kids) provides a concrete solution to an indisputable problem. Over 40% of American homes with children have guns, many of them are kept unlocked and loaded, and every year thousands of children are killed or injured in shootings involving these guns. The ASK Campaign encourages parents to ask their neighbors if they have a gun in the home before sending their children over to play. The power of this campaign is that it enrolls all Americans concerned with the welfare of children, including gun owners, and makes a discussion about public safety and good parenting part of the solution to gun violence.

 

[Byron Quick]

Penguin,

Since we're in display mode, I'll play too. I don't have a master's degree though I have two bachelor degrees. One is in psychology. The other is a bachelor of science in nursing. I've several years experience in community mental health, several years in inpatient drug rehabilitation, and several years in residential psychiatry programs. Including child and adolescent programs.

On top of that I have the experience of being a child in a house filled with both unsecured firearms and ammuntion. Both readily accessible from at least the age of five. The long guns were kept in rifle racks that I could pull a chair up to. The pistols were in closets and such.

Penguin, I used to engage in 'plundering' as a child. I wanted to look at the keepsakes hidden away. The old photographs. I was punished for this repeatedly but I never stopped. I was a stubborn child. And sneaky.

I never loaded a firearm outside of adult supervision. I never played with one much less pointed one at someone. I never even touched one. I was introduced to the power of firearms up close and personal at the age of four. My father held his Browning Light Twelve under the forestock as I nestled the buttstock to my shoulder. I pulled the trigger. That twelve gauge knocked the hell out of my young butt. I had no interest in 'playing' with such a thing.

Now I don't recommend such training for children. For one thing, it gave me a flinch that took years to overcome. But your assertion that children will absolutely play with guns is absolutely untrue. This also disproves many psychologists' belief that one step learning does not exist. I've experienced it in myself, seen it in others, seen it in dogs I've trained, and seen it occur in other dogs. I've one suggestion for these psychologists: examine what happens when the intensity of the stimulus reaches a certain level.

hso's moniker stands for Health Safety Officer. His wife is a RN and a physical therapist. I've seen their young child handle firearms. I'd trust her firearms handling more than most experienced gun people I've observed.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

That is the same mindset of "make a child drink a beer and he will never want to drink again". It just does not work. Alot of the teens I worked with said this was their first taste and it did not deter them at all. I guess since you survived an unsafe enviroment that it is okay to take a chance with another childs life? One counter example does not disprove the rule. I used to ride in our car standing in the front seat with no seatbelt. Would you let your child do this? Where children are concerned it is FAR beter to err on the safe side. Who wants to look back and say "if only I had locked the gun up" AFTER a child is injured or killed?

PS- On a personal note...Why did you choose to get a BN since you already had a BS in psychology? You could have obtained an Assoc. of nursing and recieved the same pay. Are you planning on management in the future? My partner has his masters in Biology and an Associate degree in nursing. He works for Keiser Permanente.

 

[.45Guy]

I really feel sorry for you all. My daughter's pediatrician is retired Army. Great guy, heck we even sit around and talk shop at her appointments.

 

[hillbilly]

I would suggest two things.

1) Tell the doctor that he, in your opinion, has committed a "boundary violation."

2) Find another pediatrician immediately and tell the first one that you are taking your child elsewhere precisely because you do not approve of his sticking his nose where it doesn't belong.

hillbilly

 

[orionengnr]

next time you go to a Doctor's office

amidst all the paerwork they ask you to fill out, you may find a form with some "Health Risk Assesment" type questions.

On my last visit to an MD (and my first in several ears) I was surprised to fin a number of questions that flowed naturally as a part of your health history (not a separate sheet of paper) with questions such as,
"Do you always wear your seatbelt?"
"Are there any guns in your home?"
I think there was a sex-related question in there too...safe sex or what ever.

I was quite sick at the time (hence my visit) and my mental faculties were not at 100%. I had already answered the first when I realised the direction this was taking. I crossed out my first answer, drew a diagonal line through the remainder of the question and handed it back to the receptionist. When the nurse/whoever it was who took and reviewed it read through, she stopped where I had quit writing, but didn't sy anything. I was waiting for her to refuse to see me, or the doc to inquire, but neither happened.
Unfortunately, by the time I saw the doc, I had forgotten about it (see "mental faculties" above) so I never got a chance to b!tch him out about it either.

But I read something like this on a thread a while ago, so it seems to be an AMA thing...so be on the lookout.

 

[AirForceShooter]

when you leave the exam room and go to the waiting room , firmly and rather loudly announce that the doctor is FIRED!!! And walk out, slowly.
And use that word. The look on the waitee's faces is priceless. And they're going to be asking a whole lot of questions.
doctors are not your friend. They are almost an agent of the State.
go for an eye exam and have problems. Your doc will have your drivers license pulled in an hour. Have something the State is keeping track of and they'll have your Medical report by the end of the day. and it doesn't have to be a social disease. But it's ok, It's all for your own protection.

AFS