people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...

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Moewadle,

I think many of us have no issue with someone having beliefs different than our own - it's when someone starts trying to limit MY freedoms to promote their beliefs, that I have issues!

I got no problem with someone being a vegetarian, more power to them. When they start trying to restrict or ban hunting, then they're crossing the line into MY belief system and freedom, and I'm not gonna take it lying down.

DirtyBrad,

Good to see another Marylander in the chat, don't we love the FREE state. :cuss:

Based on your posts, I'm curious if you own anything made of leather, fur, etc?

Michael
 
Glad you like my sig line...

Why does your girlfriend feel that way about the deer, but not the animals on the farm?

She knows about factory-farm animals and what they go through. She doesn't like it anymore than most of us do, I'm sure... but it's really simple - so simple I'm afraid it might seem sarcastic, but it's not.

We gotta eat. :D

I mean, factory farming and stuff is unfortunate in the way some of it happens. I've seen video of the way they treat those chickens. It's horrific. But I'm not going to stop eating chicken because a few psychos at a few factory farms like to torture them. If I knew of a reasonable way to stop it, I might give of my time to such a cause... but I'm not going to affiliate myself with an extremist group, like PETA.

As for my girlfriend, she's not against hunting at all... She just doesn't want to be the one to actually drop the hammer and put a bullet through a living animal. She's cool with hunting, and knows why it's helpful to the environment, etc. She also likes to eat meat. Her being Mexican as well, she's no stranger to having an animal slaughtered fresh for a big meal. Apparently when she was a little girl, about 8 or 9 years old, she went to her uncles house and saw a goat in the garage. Well her and her brother, being city kids, they started playing with it, thinking it was their cousins new pet.

A little while later, the uncle tells them to go in the house, and shuts the door. She said at that moment, she started to cry because she knew what was going to happen, and she didn't want them to kill the goat. Then she heard it "scream."

Her mother (who is a very no-nonsense woman) looked at her, and said very matter of factly,

"Well if they don't kill the goat, what are we going to eat?"

She ate dinner. :D

She said she enjoyed the food, but it was funny knowing she was eating her new "friend." So she learned the lesson younger than a lot of kids do - definitely younger than I did. I guess it's just the aspect of killing something herself that she doesn't find so appealing.
 
Michael,

It's a delight to live in a state where my boss can carry a gun to protect his money, but my girlfriend can't to protect her life. I guess we're "free" to move :)

As you know, your freedoms aren't absolute. In the same way you don't want someone else intruding on your freedoms, a lot of people don't want to intrude on the freedoms of animals. I'm not aware of a serious movement to outlaw the consumption of meat, but there are a lot of people trying to make the process more accountable and more humane.

No, I don't have leather or fur. My girlfriend and I have been off animal products altogether for a few years now, and I've been a vegetarian for about twenty years now (I'm 32).

***

Cousin Mike,

I gotta eat, too. And I do. Too much - I'm a fatty right now. And I'm very active. For years I was an amateur competitive cyclist. I take week-long trips on the AT, kayak, run, lift weights, all the stuff that you normal folks do.

If I had to eat and animals were all I had, I'd be chowing down and would have no problem with it, I don't think.

I don't think your girlfriend's answer to your question is accurate. It seems from what you said that the answer is more "Because I'm squeamish" or "Because it's too intense". I can't see how she'd view the animal as any more or less innocent based on who was pulling the trigger.

I don't mean any offense. You both seem to be giving genuine thought to the issue, which I think is admirable.

***

MCgunner,

I live in constant fear of hitting a deer (again), too. And it's not because I'm thinking about their well-being. Even if a cow did get out, it would pretty much just stand in the road. I could deal with that. Damn deer seem to want to jump in front of your car.
 
Remember the "Alfred E. Packer Commemorative Grill" at the U. of Colo. commisary, before the left wing politically correct idiots forced them to take down the sign?

They took that down?? Oh man, I loved that picture of him on the wall! Eating lunch under Alfred's baleful stare was SO gothic.

Remember Illegal Pete's on the hill? Good burritos with lots of meat. They had a giant mural inside of a lion devouring a gazelle.
 
I can't see how she'd view the animal as any more or less innocent based on who was pulling the trigger.

No offense taken at all. I think you're just missing the point a little. It's not that she thinks who pulls the trigger makes a difference. SHE just doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger. The intensity and squeamishness definitely seems to be a bit of a factor. The innocence thing is just the way she views any animal... and me too, to be honest.

The killing is the deciding factor. She isn't willing to kill ANYTHING that isn't attacking her - 2 or 4 legged.

While I think deer are beautiful animals, and think all animals are essentially innocent in nature, I still eat meat. So killing one isn't a big deal. In fact, me putting a bullet through an animals vitals is probably a lot more humane than being mauled by a bear or suffocated by a mountain lion - so for me nature is more cruel than any ethical hunter.

Although I have no desire to simply kill an animal, I know that in order for me to eat, that cute little fuzzy thing has to die. Circle of life and all that stuff. Something's going to kill it and eat it one day - might as well be me.

Her attitude is more of "You kill it and bring it home, I'll eat it - but I'm not shooting it myself," type of attitude. She just doesn't seem to have the heart to kill something that poses no danger to her. I thought her perspective was interesting, but I do understand it and think it's fairly honest.
 
Cousin Mike, I don't see anything wrong with your girlfriend's point of view. If she doesn't want to kill anything, she shouldn't have to. Not everybody needs to be a hunter, but everybody who eats meat should respect where it comes from. It sounds like she does.

Most people probably aren't cut out for killing, just as most people aren't cut out to be doctors or judges or accountants or janitors. It takes many different personalities to make up a functioning society. Society functions best when each necessary part recognizes and respects the others.
 
"Well, if I ever had to shoot a person, it would be because he was trying to hurt me in some way... So hell yeah I'm going to shoot him. But with a deer, it's different. He's just trying to live his life - so I guess to be honest, I just view a deer as innocent."

Not trying to be funny here either, but this reminds me of the time Kurt Russell put on that big celebrity shoot in Hawaii and the anti-hunting and animal rights nuts got after him about "how do you feel about killing all those innocent animals?". I remember seeing the film clips of that and his response was "I don't know whether they were innocent or guilty, but I do know a lot of people are going to eat who wouldn't have."
 
Cousin Mike,

I understand what you're saying, but the "innocent" answer still sounds strange to me. She's certainly not a hypocrite - she's not condemning those who do something she doesn't feel comfortable doing.

I think it's because it implies a moral reason why she doesn't want to do it. Not doing something for a moral reason, but being okay with another doing it and consuming the result seems contradictory to me.

I don't want to (and probably couldn't) be a doctor, but it's not because I have a problem with anything about it. I'm glad that there are people who do it and enjoy it and I don't think it's contradictory to go to a doctor or benefit from it.

I agree that you are probably killing it more humanely than it would otherwise die. But I don't think the fact that it will die someday is a reasonable justification for killing it now. We're all going to die someday.

Again, you don't have to kill it to eat. You choose to kill it because it's what you like to eat. I respect you killing food that you eat yourself and the fact that, by doing so, you have a good understanding of what's involved, but no one's putting a gun to your head :)

I didn't mean to imply at all that your girlfriend wasn't being honest. I'm sorry if it came across like that.
 
Thanks for clearing that up, DirtyBrad - but for the record, I didn't think you were calling her dishonest. It seems I had a little misunderstanding going on myself. Looks like we're pretty much on the same page.

Not everybody needs to be a hunter, but everybody who eats meat should respect where it comes from.

I agree whole-heartedly... Last story, and then I'm outta here.

I have a cousin named Al - I asked him about hunting. He told me that for his 11th birthday (he's 35), he got a BB gun. One of those old-school things that you pump up about 1000 times... He said there was a squirrel that used to always come around his yard, and he would always try to shoot it - but he could never hit it.

One day before school, he saw it. He got his BB gun and started pumping away, and then he took careful aim - and PLAP!

Nailed it!

After it fell out of the tree, he went outside to check on his prize - and he said when he saw that dead squirrel, he just lost it.. Bawled like a little girl. Couldn't go to school, couldn't eat for the rest of the day.. Decided at that moment, hunting wasn't for him. :p

Funny story, but it proves what you're saying. Al also CCW's, and is a pretty tough guy by any standards... But shooting a squirrel reduced him to tears. I've heard about hunters who go out for their first time, get something, and then decide that they can't do it again when they see the pain/fear in an animals eyes. I hope that doesn't happen to me, but I've never killed anything. I guess we'll see.

All I was saying was that there are reasons why some people seem anti-hunter that we don't really think about. Most of it, from my limited perspective, seems stupid... like folks who hate hunters, but eat meat. To me, that's just retarded. But some folks make a compelling argument for why they themselves can't do it.

Anyone who is against the act of hunting, regardless of their personal feelings, is an elitist IMO - among many other things. I'm glad I've never really met anyone like that recently - I wouldn't know what to say to them. Even the vegetarians I know respect others' right to hunt and eat meat. They just choose not to.

The one person I know who does have strong anti-hunting feelings is just an idiot on several levels - and his reasoning reflects that. He also eats meat.

We don't hang out much. :evil:
 
PETA is an easy target for those looking to dismiss the issue. While the majority of PETA's work isn't of the headline-grabbing, fake-blood-flinging variety, what if we agree to leave them out just to eliminate the emotion, extremism, and bias associated with them.

Instead, look to the industry itself. Look at its own publications and products to get a sense of what it's really like.

------------------------

Im curious, whats your overall stance on the industry? I hope you arent suggesting that we completely do away with farming for meat, poultry, and dairy.?:confused:
 
I agree that anyone who eats meat should have that understanding. Well said.

I find it very, very strange that a person could have that reaction to killing an animal, swear that they were never going to do it again, but then go on eating animals that others have killed. Am I just biased or is that illogical or disconnected or something?

Actually, I can think of something sort of similar, but it relies on necessity. I could understand if someone supported the death penalty, but didn't have it in them to actually pull the switch (or whatever they do). "I recognize that this person has to die, but I don't think I have it in me to do it myself." That at least makes logical sense to me.

But eating meat isn't a necessity, which I why I don't think it's the same thing. I'm sure folks will argue that it's natural or the kinds of teeth we have or whatever, but I'm not sure how you can refute the millions of healthy non-meat-eaters out there. I guess maybe you can say they're sneaking it on the side or something.

It's funny. I've never really thought about whether I'm against hunting or not. The farthest I've gotten is that I think meat-eaters who condemn it are fools and that I think anyone who eats meat should experience it to have a real understanding about their choices.

I guess I don't support it, though. My whole thing about not eating meat is that the benefit to me is trivial, while the impact on the animals is tremendous. I'd just as soon leave animals alone.
 
Sorry, High Planes Drifter, posted right on top of you.

I'm saying I think it's helpful to leave out PETA because they're a polarizing, often-extreme group that is just one voice for a much bigger issue. Arguments about animal treatment that involve them almost always seem to devolve into arguments about them.

My stance is a pretty broad topic. I'll do by best to answer, but, being the internet, lord knows how well I'll do.

I don't think we should eliminate farming. I think we should eliminate the factory conditions that exist for the production of meat, dairy, and eggs. I think most people believe in treating animals humanely and that they would not be happy with what they saw if they really looked into it.

I've been trying to refrain from enumerating the gory details. I know that's inflammatory and somewhat emotional. I hope people will look up the facts for themselves. We want to know the truth, right? We want to buy shoes for a good price, but we'd want to know if they were being produced with slave labor so at least we could make an informed decision about buying them.

Again, my position is that the taste of my food is a very small thing compared with causing suffering in animals that have done me no harm.
 
I've read the whole thread, and I'll chime in that I do hunt and eat what I hunt. For me it's mostly anything on the wing. Ducks, Geese, Pheasant, Quail, and Doves.. People ask me, how can you shoot the bird of peace? I usually reply, you have to give them about a 3-4 foot lead.. ;)

I've had discussions with those who choose to not eat meat for whatever reason they have, it usually floors them when I tell them that I cannot eat fresh fruits, veggies, raw eggs, or half the nuts on the planet. What the heck would you have me eat? When I say raw eggs, Sunny side up or over easy counts. It has to be scrambeled, over hard, or boiled into submission. They are then a little more understanding of why I do it.

One thing I've seen a few times.. A Native American saying.. A vegetarian is a sign of a bad hunter. :rolleyes:

My reason for hunting has always been due to "If I'm going to eat meat, I'm going to at least be partially part of the process". Ok so I don't kill cows.. I think the zoning laws where I live frown on that sort of thing.

Vince
 
people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...

I had one tell me she couldn't bear the thought of a little tiny faun being wounded and crawling away to die. Another mental midget asked me how I could shoot some tiny deer's "mommy". When I told her that by the time hunting season comes around, the young are all on their own, she told me she didn't believe that.
The short of it is that these people saw "Bambi" and thought it was a documentary.
 
thanks guys, you all know what we do, and why we do it, and we all kill to eat, i'm happy that so many people have posted on this, it makes me proud to be a member of a website that has people that understand hungint. it is because of all the people on this site that guns are still around and legal so i thank you all. by the way, i might only be 15, but some 30 year olds are dumber than a bag-o-rocks. thanks guys
 
by the way, i might only be 15, but some 30 year olds are dumber than a bag-o-rocks. thanks guys

Well, I'm 32 and I've noticed some real dummies in my age group too, so we're not all going around griping about "kids these days". Sharing opinions seems to generally be no problem here... you get a bunch of opinionated people and a hot-button issue and there you go.:cool:
 
DirtyBrad,

Now we're getting to the specifics! I hear your personal positon about not being for hunting...and if you choose vegetarianism, go for it...

As a hunter, the issue I would have, would be people trying to ban hunting via political process. You notice I went back to people, and not YOU, at this point, because I don't hear you saying that..

For instance, Michigan has been put in the potential positon of having a VOTE on whether dove hunting should be allowed - I think that's way over the top, for one group of people to vote to limit the actions of another group, when the second group is not breaking the law and is not doing anything besides minding their own business and leading their own lives.

Hunting is the primary tool used to manage populations of game across the country, and provides recreational and nutritional benefits to its members while also providing economic stimulus to states and significant amounts of healthy protein to homeless shelters and soup kitchens.

I think one of the principles of being free, is that we're all free to pursue our desired path (vegetarian, hunter, etc) , without interference from others, as long as we're not intruding on the space of others or breaking the law.

Different topic: I used to race bicycles as well, back in the early 90s - even stopped eating meat during that time, AND GAVE AWAY MY GUNS (some decisions were not the best I've made!) When I started hunting again in the late 902, I had to buy new guns...oh well, that part was fun too!

Michael
 
And Now, Might I Add....

that I'm signing off for now, to go eat some of the moose backstrap from my Alaska hunt this year!

Cheers,

Michael
 
Read 'Fast Food Nation'.
Read 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'.

Neither of these books are pro-vegetarian, they are anti-meat industry. They would be of great interest (IMO) to hunters.

I recently read a book called Raising Less Corn, More H*ll: The Case For The Independent Farm And Against Industrial Food. It's less about the particulars of diet and more about how modern factory farming is very bad for everyone.

I have a cousin named Al - I asked him about hunting. He told me that for his 11th birthday (he's 35), he got a BB gun. One of those old-school things that you pump up about 1000 times... He said there was a squirrel that used to always come around his yard, and he would always try to shoot it - but he could never hit it.

One day before school, he saw it. He got his BB gun and started pumping away, and then he took careful aim - and PLAP!

Nailed it!

After it fell out of the tree, he went outside to check on his prize - and he said when he saw that dead squirrel, he just lost it.. Bawled like a little girl. Couldn't go to school, couldn't eat for the rest of the day.. Decided at that moment, hunting wasn't for him.

I had an experience that was almost identical, although I was nine or so. However, I did grow up on a ranch and I was used to riding along when my mom and dad went quail hunting, so I was accustomed to seeing dead critters. Killing that starling didn't cause me to swear off hunting, but now I don't kill anything unless I'm going to eat it or it's a threat.

James
 
Most people probably aren't cut out for killing,

Only in a modern urban society. In the real world where people kill or starve (wringing a chicken's neck is killing) you won't find too many survivors that don't kill something. Vegetarianism is a product of perhaps the last couple of hundred years. When people were mostly agrarian, we had no time for such stupidity. Before that, 5,000 years ago or so, hunter gatherers hunted as well as gathered.

Hell, stepping on a roach is killing. It is said Johnny Applesseed (was he fictitious? LOL) would put out a camp fire to keep from killing mosquitoes. That's getting carried away, I'd think. :rolleyes: People have a bad habit of anthropomorphizing animals, plants, even inaniment objects. Folks, deer ain't human. Sure, they're mammals, but they ain't human and don't necessarily speak to each other or have advanced cerebral thought. I don't particularly believe they have "rights" either, not as in "human rights". Sure, I make humane kills and treat pets and animals I'm around humanely, but RIGHTS? Killing a pig isn't murder in my book, nor is stepping on a roach. Just how far do you wanna take this "animal rights" line of thought, as far as Johnny Appleseed did? Does it include arthropods? How about protozoans? Viruses? If there are animal rights, why are not there plant rights?

My daughter gave me a T shirt a while back, says "Vegetarian... ve je tar e un Native American word for bad hunter." :D

BTW, if you are a vegetarian, you must kill and eat innocent plants. How do you live with yourself?

Personally, I revel in my place in the natural world as an apex predator. Man accented in nature as an apex predator. What he lacked in brawn, he made up for in brains. Beats runnin' around the savanna as prey for the lions, don't ya think?

I have seen on science channel documentaries that it takes predation to grow brain cells. IOW, had we not become carnivorous, we'd be stuck with the tiny brains that our ancestors, Homo habolis, had. I wonder if that works in reverse, if you get off meat your brain shrinks? Just listening to some hollywood PETA types makes me thing it's possible. ROFLMAO!
 
It's interesting to have a moral view that I know is in a very small minority. Following our system of government, I have to go with the will of the majority. If you're against slavery, but 95% of the people in the country are for it, what do you do? You don't have a way of changing laws, so I guess you have to changes minds, be a subversive, or both.

As for the legality of hunting and whose rights are being violated, I think it all depends on your view of animals. If you're of the view that an animal doesn't have the right to go about its daily business in the forest without being shot, then you're right. From that perspective, anyone trying to legislate your hunting is infringing on your rights.

But if you have the view that they do have those rights, then it's no longer your right to shoot them. It's not the law or the tree-hugging hippies that are violating your rights, it's you who's violating the rights of the animals.

Animal rights are a tricky subject. Most people would agree, I think, that a person who tortures a dog should be punished severely. But most people also agree that we should eat animals. From that, it strikes me that the average person feels that animals have some rights, but not the same as us. I would agree with that; I think it's the definition of just what "some" means that is a tough area.

Again, for me it's a question of risk vs. reward. It seems from the response of a lot of the hunters here that killing an animal is generally considered a grave thing. I agree. To commit that grave act would require me to have an equally grave reason - self-defense, starving in the woods, etc.

As I've said, my tastebuds to me don't come anywhere close to that reason. As for hunting, I would love to. I love the outdoors. I'm a pretty minimalist long-distance hiker, cyclist, and I love being on the water. I think all the time while paddling about the Indians and how they paddled down the same stretch of water and how their lives must have been. I think I would get a lot out of hunting.

But what would that be? I think it would be more serious than a game or a hobby, but it would still be a pleasure that I imagine would be what cycling or hiking is to me now. To me, that's not enough to justify it. I hope I'm making myself clear.

***

Jalexander,

I think my girlfriend read the same book. She was on my like fire for a long time about corn syrup. It's proof that, despite all of this, I'm mostly lazy as hell. She's making good points about health and the evils of factory farming, but I still can't seem to manage to give up a Coke with lunch or the convenience of junk food. I know they're the devil, but I'm weak.
 
MCgunner, sorry. Typing a million responses to this today keeps causing me to post right over other people.

For me, the relevant question isn't how intelligent animals are or how sentient, but whether they have the capacity to suffer. Which is why there's a lot of eye-rolling to questions about killing the innocent broccoli, etc. I probably don't have to point out that vegetables lack both a method for processing pain and the nerves to transmit it.

Like I said, if you think the way America processes its food animals doesn't cause a lot of suffering or if you don't think that suffering is wrong, that's one thing. But if you do, yet continue to contribute to it, I think that's a logical disconnect.

I have a hard time linking us to our agrarian ancestors. They were also too busy to go to the dentist, attend college, buy rifle ammunition, etc. As I said, if I were facing starvation, I would certainly kill animals to survive. I would be happy to have them. But I don't need to do that to be healthy or full.

You called being vegetarian "stupidity". I can't see how it has anything to do with intelligence one way or the other. I'm curious as to how you think it does.
 
I enjoy hunting for food you will eat, but I was at the range and was talking to an older man who was talking about what he had used to shoot an elephant, and I was taken aback. Killing an elephant as a trophy in this day and age is something I do not feel comfortable with at all. Maybe if you were Teddy Roosevelt, in 1908, but I don't see it today.
 
Dirtybrad, I'm not addressing directly America's meat processing industry, but my right to hunt and kill prey and take my place in nature as an apex predator. I do believe animals should be dispatched as quickly as possible and have nothing against laws for such in slaughter houses.

This "animal rights" argument could only be applied in modern western society. In other societies, there are fewer such morays about the killing of animals. In Spain, the blood sport of bull fighting still survives and thrives. 25,000 years ago, our ancestors killed to survive. Man is a natural predator, evolved as a predator. It is our natural place in nature. It is genetic. We do not have ruminant guts like a cow. We eat meat and we need it nutritionally, even though we can get some necessary nutrition from plants. Cooking allows us to fully utilize plants, it is not physiological. Too, there are a couple of amino acids we can only get from meat. There is one plant source, as I understand it, for these two amino acids, soy. If you don't have soy in your habitat, you have to eat meat. I don't think soy grew or was utilized in ice age Europe or in Africa from whence we all came. By nature, we are predators. If you will, God made us that way. I ain't gonna stop being a predator for anyone's feelings, much less the deer I shoot. Yeah, they have nervous systems. So does a cock roach. Do you worry about the suffering of cock roaches when you put out your poison or stick 'em traps?

Yes, treat animals humanely, don't take pleasure in torturing them. But, by all means, take pleasure in taking your place in nature as an apex predator. That is what you are. You are made that way by your creator. It is your place on this earth. You are not here to torture animals, but to prey on herbivores. Were it not for a six mile wide asteroid, the Tyrannosaurus might yet have our altar at the top of the food chain, but thems the breaks. The dinosaurs are gone and we've taken over. I do not find it inhumane to kill my own food, nor do I find it unnatural. Quite to the contrary, nothing is MORE natural! I have hunted and fished all my life and a good portion of my diet has been that which I personally killed over all these 54 years and that's not going to stop now because of a few kooky movie stars that are way removed from the world of reality. Besides, I don't really like salad all that much.
 
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